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messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Pugwash July 13, 12:57PM

Boris to announce later (today?) as to the compulsory wearing of masks in shops.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by AylwardS July 13, 02:00PM

Good point seenbeen. Given there is a good chance they will be made mandatory in shops when Boris clarifies if enforcement will take place maybe if you give to a food bank donation they might have community links they could distribute masks via

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred July 13, 11:05PM


messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by pk July 14, 10:04AM

looks like Boris has finally got away from the masks do more harm than good BS!

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by JohnL July 14, 10:51AM

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> looks like Boris has finally got away from the
> masks do more harm than good BS!


He's apparently not around much at present - Cummings running the show smiling smiley

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Penguin68 July 14, 12:37PM

At the start of the pandemic many people thought masks (even non surgical ones) would protect them - rather than masks protecting others from you. To have encouraged or even endorsed mask wearing then would have been to court danger, it could be argued, whilst now mask wearing is seen as a courtesy to others, as well as offering (albeit minimal) protection to others from symptom-less carriers. Had more been known about them and their prevalence maybe the advice could have been different.

But certainly distancing and handwashing are still your best protection from others.

To some extent at least mask wearing is a second set of braces once you have the belt and braces of handwashing and distancing - although in circumstances where distancing is difficult (public transport, cramped shops or workplaces) they may offer something to others around you, should you be the one silently infected.

But now we (mostly) know what masks do (and, crucially, don't offer) - more wearing of them may be sensible.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by ianr July 14, 01:06PM

> He's apparently not around much at
> present - Cummings running the show

What are your information sources?

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by pk July 14, 01:59PM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At the start of the pandemic many people thought
> masks (even non surgical ones) would protect them
> - rather than masks protecting others from you. To
> have encouraged or even endorsed mask wearing then
> would have been to court danger, it could be
> argued, whilst now mask wearing is seen as a
> courtesy to others, as well as offering (albeit
> minimal) protection to others from symptom-less
> carriers. Had more been known about them and their
> prevalence maybe the advice could have been
> different.
>
> But certainly distancing and handwashing are still
> your best protection from others.
>
> To some extent at least mask wearing is a second
> set of braces once you have the belt and braces of
> handwashing and distancing - although in
> circumstances where distancing is difficult
> (public transport, cramped shops or workplaces)
> they may offer something to others around you,
> should you be the one silently infected.
>
> But now we (mostly) know what masks do (and,
> crucially, don't offer) - more wearing of them may
> be sensible.

isnt the current view that (proper) masks can reduce the risk of infection for the wearer as well as those around them?

i don't agree on the 'courting danger' point

i've always believed masks weren't encouraged earlier as the government knew that there was inadequate supply (i don't have evidence for that being the reason tho the supply issue is fact)

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred July 15, 09:15AM

If the shopkeepers do wear masks I hope they wear the smile masks in order to be accessible to all of their customers. [www.facebook.com]

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Nigello July 15, 11:45AM

Masks are ok, they do help somewhat, I think. What also helps is keeping ones distance, not like the good parents of Goodrich who meet and chat at very close quarters of a morning, mask- and worry-free! Dont hang around in shops, go early or late to avoid any crush and just think that everyone around you could be symptom-free but still infective.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by siousxiesue July 15, 03:32PM

Are staff then expected to wear them too? I hope so..

How long can you wear one, is one effective all day long?

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Annie5 July 15, 05:17PM

I am worried about the issue of public transport. I travelled on the P13 on Saturday evening and a large group of teenage girls boarded at Goose Green, without masks. Not only were they without masks, but they then sat behind and in front of elderly people, leaning over the seats and definitely in other people's space ........

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by siousxiesue July 15, 07:17PM

I wonder if the system of ticket inspection can be broadened to include spot checks for masks.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by NewWave July 16, 08:11PM

siousxiesue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the system of ticket inspection can be
> broadened to include spot checks for masks.

I've actually spoken to BTP and TFL about this having seen large groups of people going through ticket barriers at the tube station not wearing masks and not being spoken to or refused entry.
This was when a half a dozen BTP were stood nearby.
I was told that they haven't actually been given any power to enforce the rule.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was july 16, 08:12pm by NewWave.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Blah Blah July 20, 11:45AM

A colleague made a good comparison (I thought) yesterday in comparing the anti-mask brigade to those who took offense to the law requiring seat belts to be always worn. Those opposed to seat belts also believed that they were not effective in reducing injury risk. So it would seem there are just a section of people who will never believe anything they are told, irregardless of the evidence to the contrary.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by ianr July 20, 12:30PM

Duly authorised TfL employees and any police officer, even a PCSO, are among those with some enforcement powers. But the powers exist only in respect of those who are do not have a reasonable excuse for not wearing a mask. [www.legislation.gov.uk]. I suspect it's open to both TfL and BTP to enquire of any passenger why they're not personally wearing one. But I doubt that either body will consider it useful, politic or justified to exercise that discretion universally. There's no regulation saying you must declare your excuse every time you travel.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by JohnL July 21, 09:36AM

NewWave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> siousxiesue Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wonder if the system of ticket inspection can
> be
> > broadened to include spot checks for masks.
>
> I've actually spoken to BTP and TFL about this
> having seen large groups of people going through
> ticket barriers at the tube station not wearing
> masks and not being spoken to or refused entry.
> This was when a half a dozen BTP were stood
> nearby.
> I was told that they haven't actually been given
> any power to enforce the rule.

Do they need to enforce - can't they just go over and remind ?

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by ianr July 23, 04:29PM

They've managed to get the shop regulations out in time: [www.legislation.gov.uk].

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by drewd July 25, 09:41AM

I was in Forest Hill Sainsbury's last night. At least a third of people were not wearing masks. One recorded message played while I was in the shop asking people to wear masks. It was immediately followed by a message asking people to being considerate of staff and customers who might not be able to wear masks or to social distance for personal reasons. With this kind of mixed messaging I don't think it will be long before a lot more customers stop bothering to wear masks. It seems that Sainsbury's are as concerned about people without masks being judged or confronted as they are about trying to protect their staff and customers from Covid. It seems crazy to me. Very disappointed in Sainsbury's. And even more so in its customers.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by n dulwich northerner July 25, 01:13PM

In Sainsburys DKH about 9am today, almost everyone wore masks and I only noticed 3 not doing so. I wish Sainsburys would refuse them entry - let them go hungry until they get the message.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was july 25, 01:13pm by n dulwich northerner.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by seenbeen July 25, 01:47PM

n dulwich northerner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Sainsburys DKH about 9am today, almost everyone
> wore masks and I only noticed 3 not doing so. I
> wish Sainsburys would refuse them entry - let them
> go hungry until they get the message.

People who have breathing problems like asthma for example cannot wear masks and should download the badge
[disabilityhorizons.com]

I am not exempt but I cannot wear the cotton masks as they are too closely woven but I can wear disposables or t-shirt material.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by n dulwich northerner July 25, 04:54PM

seenbeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People who have breathing problems like asthma for
> example cannot wear masks and should download the
> badge
> [disabilityhorizons.com]
> xemptions-how-to-ensure-you-dont-get-fined/
>
> I am not exempt but I cannot wear the cotton masks
> as they are too closely woven but I can wear
> disposables or t-shirt material.

I have asthma myself and don't really believe it is a genuine excuse. If it is so serious, you stay at home, get home delivery, do click and collect. The more excuses they tolerate, the worse for the rest of us?

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Penguin68 July 25, 06:30PM

If it is so serious, you stay at home, get home delivery, do click and collect.

For many people, lock-down has been seriously mentally disturbing, particularly for those on their own at home - balancing continuing to stay in isolation with getting out to see some life is difficult, certainly, but to condemn those who have underlying conditions to continuing imprisonment is simply cruel. I am sure those who can't wear masks for medical reasons (which in themselves make them more vulnerable) will have thought very hard about going out - but maybe their mental health needs are now trumping their physical health needs.

Of course there will be people who claim disabilities they don't have. But to punish the disabled because there are able bodied cheats is I think wholly wrong. If you are worried about mixing with the unmasked, perhaps you could stay at home, get home delivery, do click and collect. If that's all so easy.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by Pugwash July 25, 06:45PM

We have purchased face shields to wear as I rely most of the time on lip reading and find this difficult when husband (and others ) are wearing a mask. I have no problems wearing masks but find that I have to take off glasses and hearing aid to put them on. Hubby now wears a face shield and I can lip read him perfectly now.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by n dulwich northerner July 25, 07:07PM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If it is so serious, you stay at home, get home
> delivery, do click and collect.
>
> For many people, lock-down has been seriously
> mentally disturbing, particularly for those on
> their own at home - balancing continuing to stay
> in isolation with getting out to see some life is
> difficult, certainly, but to condemn those who
> have underlying conditions to continuing
> imprisonment is simply cruel. I am sure those who
> can't wear masks for medical reasons (which in
> themselves make them more vulnerable) will have
> thought very hard about going out - but maybe
> their mental health needs are now trumping their
> physical health needs.
>
> Of course there will be people who claim
> disabilities they don't have. But to punish the
> disabled because there are able bodied cheats is I
> think wholly wrong. If you are worried about
> mixing with the unmasked, perhaps you could stay
> at home, get home delivery, do click and collect.
> If that's all so easy.

It's not punishing anyone to slip on a mask or to be asked - nicely of course - to explain their reasons for not doing so. And to use your own arguments, doesn't excluding "able bodied cheats" help make these other folk and the rest of us more confident to use the supermarket?

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by dontbesilly July 27, 10:04AM

I had to tell a nosy, do gooder woman in Co-op to mind her own beeswax when she commented on me not wearing a mask over the weekend. I consider wearing a mask completely pointless (i think i probably already had corona so am now immune) and awfully uncomfortable. If shops are not going to enforce it and are happy to let me in and spend my money, then i will continue to not wear a mask. Woebetide the next busybody who comments on it.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by JohnL July 27, 11:26AM

dontbesilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had to tell a nosy, do gooder woman in Co-op to
> mind her own beeswax when she commented on me not
> wearing a mask over the weekend. I consider
> wearing a mask completely pointless (i think i
> probably already had corona so am now immune) and
> awfully uncomfortable. If shops are not going to
> enforce it and are happy to let me in and spend my
> money, then i will continue to not wear a mask.
> Woebetide the next busybody who comments on it.

It all depends on your individual body and immune system - you may or may not be immune.

If you are really unlucky even a mild bout may have weakened your heart/kidneys and a second bout may complete the work. I'm always a late adopter in things with danger so I'm waiting to see what happens to other people before taking the risk - I am going out so infrequently a mask is no problem when I do.

Mind my plan requires others to take a risk so I can know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was july 27, 11:28am by JohnL.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by n dulwich northerner July 27, 11:33AM

Good for her, and who knows whether you are still immune or are contagious? Other European governments with fewer deaths/infections mandate masks so it might just be a bright idea to heed their advice rather than our own Covid-addled government's yeah-no-but-yeah "strategy"?

As for the Coop, they've explained why they are failing to enforce the regulations:
"Jo Whitfield, who runs the Co-ops 2,600 grocery stores, said staff already received abuse from shoppers on a daily basis and would not be challenging customers over the matter.
Well have in-store signage on the new rules around face coverings but we are clear that shop workers should not enforce the new legislation, Whitfield said.
On a daily basis they face abuse, threatening behaviour and even physical assault. Our own figures show that during the Covid-19 crisis such instances have risen and enforcing the wearing of face masks could be another flashpoint.

You can't ask a shelf stacker or someone on checkout to confront people and turn them away. Maybe the Coop doesn't have a security guy?

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by drewd July 27, 11:37AM

Don'tBeSilly, What's uncomfortable is a ventilator shoved down your throat because you can't breathe on your own. Congratulations to the "do-gooder" in Coop for at least showing you that your selfish behaviour does not go unnoticed.

messageRe: Keeping ED safe - masks in shops (staff and shoppers)
Posted by dontbesilly July 27, 12:01PM

drewd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don'tBeSilly, What's uncomfortable is a ventilator
> shoved down your throat because you can't breathe
> on your own. Congratulations to the "do-gooder" in
> Coop for at least showing you that your selfish
> behaviour does not go unnoticed.


I dont care if people notice, but they ought to not speak to me as they will get told exactly where to go. If the people in danger of coronavirus (those over 60 and/or with underlying health conditions) insist on putting themselves in danger by going to shops, then there is not much we can do to help them. They can pick up coronavirus just from touching anything in there. Perhaps the shops should just ban these people from entering and let the younger generation- myself included, carry on living their life as normal.

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