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messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by James Barber March 01, 09:54PM

Hi rupert,
I'm not asserting this charge covers the cost of providing the parking - I've explicitly said it is way more than the cost incurred.
What I've stated is the current council administrations position.

The maintenance of the parks car parks is paid from from general council revenues. So those with and without cars are paying for that maintenance.

But half the population have no access to cars. So the impact will be a proportion of the half who have enough money or inclination to own and run cars and drive them to parks.

Regarding park staff. I don't know if they'll be charged. Perhaps worth asking one of the Labour councillors introducing this charge.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Ampersand March 01, 11:07PM

Genuinely encouraged by the altruistic responses to this thread about concern for people on lower incomes and their access to the green spaces in the borough. I can’t afford to own a car so do pm me about when you are available to pick me up and give me a lift to my local park.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 02, 04:04am by Ampersand.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by womanofdulwich March 01, 11:38PM

Are they going to make more places to park a bike in Dulwich Park?

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by mrwb March 02, 07:56AM

Ampersand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Genuinely encouraged by the altruistic responses
> to this thread about concern for people on lower
> incomes and their access to the green spaces in
> the borough. I can’t afford to own a car so do pm
> me about when you are available to pick me up and
> give me a lift to my local park.

Maybe Southwark council could use the parking fees to create an app to do just that? Southwark park ride-sharing app?

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Glemham March 02, 11:08AM

Thank you James for posting this. It would be helpful to get this information from current councillors for the areas affected. I agree that there is likely to be a knock-on effect on parking in residential roads close to the parks particularly at weekends which CPZs don’t cover.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Blah Blah March 02, 12:23PM

As others have pointed out, Southwark council has had to manage the impact of central government funding cuts for 8 years now. Council surpluses were finally drained about three years ago I think. So unless we want cuts to adult and child social care and other key front line services the council have no choice but to look for other revenue streams. If it is not parking it will be something else sadly.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Zig-Zag March 02, 01:26PM

It's an absurd argument so say that as 50% don't have a car in Southwark, it's unfair for them to be paying some Council tax towards car users. I don't have children but am paying for schools and maternity care etc...and am very happy to do so!

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Growlybear March 02, 02:23PM

Like everyone else, I would always prefer to park anywhere free of charge, but if you can afford to maintain, tax, and insure a car, then surely it's not impossible to find the money to pay for parking when you use one of the parks?

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Jacqui5254 March 02, 09:14PM

Growlybear Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like everyone else, I would always prefer to park
> anywhere free of charge, but if you can afford to
> maintain, tax, and insure a car, then surely it's
> not impossible to find the money to pay for
> parking when you use one of the parks?



How on earth can you make a judgement on what people can and cannot afford?

As you say, car owners have to buy, maintain, tax and insure a car.

Add on the cost of petrol,extra penalties for diesel car parking [diesel cars bought on the advice of the government as being the smart and responsible choice], congestion charges, ULEZ penalties, etc.

A lot of people need to use a car, and a lot of people are struggling financially.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by James Barber March 02, 09:41PM

Hi Blah Blah,
Central government have been reducing the central government part of local councils funding for the last 16 years to my knowledge.

Hi Jacqui5154,
Owning and running a car is now the cheapest it has been for a couple of decades. Car ownership costs have not risen with inflation. Taxation on fuel has been frozen for many years.

Yes, sadly many do need a car, we've yet to redesign our society to far Climate Change. I don't like the detail of what's proposed or the pricing but doing nothing generally to fight Climate Change urgency isn't an option.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Blah Blah March 02, 11:07PM

I think you need to take a look at the trajectory that car insurance has taken James. Owning a car is not as cheap as you might think.

And seeing as you can never resist playing party politics, from 2010 to 2020, councils will have lost 60p out of every £1 the Government had provided for services beforehand. So spare us the nonsense that cuts were part of a trajectory begun by a Labour government. They were nothing like the cuts your party and the Tories have inflicted since 2010 - as you well know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 02, 11:13pm by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by James Barber March 03, 09:08AM

hi blah blah,
WE own a car. We've had to replace it due to the ULEZ as it was a 2012 diesel. We understand the cost of motoring on a persona level and reading various report societal level. We are trying to change our habits but it isn't always easy to change.

This RAC chart is telling on this issue - [www.racfoundation.org]

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by MarkT March 03, 12:49PM

Are the driveways and car parks, located within the parks, part of the Council highways?
If they are part of the parks, surely any money raised can and should be spent on parks.

If they are part of the highways network any money raised must be spent only on highways, but there is no obligation for the Council to make a profit on this. It is the Council's choice to milk the parks. Across the Borough, the start-up costs will be £50.5K, income per annum £200k.

If there are particular problems eg the Report mentions commuters (is there any evidence of this?) then the charges could operate for a couple of hours in the day.

But If this is a highways issue. why is it being decided by the Cabinet member for Culture, Leisure, Equalities and Communities? Whether or not it comes under their remit, Deputy Leader Councillor Rebecca Lury and Fiona Dean, Director of Leisure, should be ashamed of themselves.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by James Barber March 03, 02:30PM

This is all within the Parks department. And I agree MarkT, the cost and profit should at least be kept within parks.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by MarkT March 03, 03:53PM

Thanks James, I see that Paragraph 3 of the report states it refers to:
"parks in the borough of which six have existing off-street carparks within their boundary". So yes it is parks.

The speed of this is outrageous. Cabinet report dated 25th February to be implemented 1st April. And the Council website states that the Decision may be taken any time after 5th March. That's one week to inform that list of consultees, by the way ignoring the public in general, then those consultee organisations have to organise meetings or whatever to form a view and respond.

To be implemented by 1st April they no doubt have contracts already signed for the works.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 03:54pm by MarkT.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Charles Notice March 03, 05:28PM

With regard to your comment

"To be implemented by 1st April they no doubt have contracts already signed for the works."

Have other people who use Dulwich Park noticed that Conway is now going round re-doing the kerb stones to allow wheel chair access. This was something people raised at the time of the works. Why no access.

As the original contractors were not Conway why could these works not have been done as part of the original works?

If you are fitting and laying new pavements and kerb stones, do you really need another contractor to do additional works?

Southwark say they have no money but the way they work does not make sense.

Using up funds before the end of the financial year or kids in charge who do not have a clue about commercial contracts.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 Aprilattachment
Posted by MarkT March 03, 11:10PM

Here's a page from Southwark's Open Space Strategy, a map of distances from the nearest open space. White means a long way away. See the white space in the middle - that is East Dulwich

Attachments: Open Space Deprivation.docx (605.1KB)  
messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Metallic March 04, 12:45PM

Except it has been announced the Head Gardener of Dulwich Park is not being replaced.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by MarkT March 17, 04:09PM

I sent the following a couple of weeks ago to the Decision Maker, Councillor Rebecca Lury, Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for culture, leisure, equalities, and communities. I copied it to Richard Livingstone who decides on CPZ's and to all our Dulwich Community Councillors.
MarkT

An open letter in response to charge for car parking within Southwark parks

I am concerned about the proposal to charge for carparking in Southwark parks, particularly in relation to my two nearest parks, Peckham Rye and Dulwich.

You state that the car parks provide a service for those who “choose to drive”. The Report gives no consideration of “need to drive” except forTo Councillor Rebecca Lury, Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for culture, leisure, equalities, and communities, Blue Badge holders. For some with disabilities who do not qualify for a Blue Badge, distance from home to the park might be a key consideration. In your Community Impact Statement you state there will be no disproportionate affect on any community group, but you seem not to have considered Open Space Deprivation.

I attach a screen shot of the map on page 44 of Southwark’s Open Space Strategy, showing distances from the nearest open space, with large areas of Open Space Deprivation in the South of the Borough, in particular the densely populated part of East Dulwich which is equally badly served by Peckham Rye and Dulwich Park.

I see no mention in the Report of organised activities in the parks. In this respect my local parks may be no different from others across the Borough. In Peckham Rye and Dulwich Park, large numbers of young people routinely take part in organised sports. Neither does your Report mention that the Dulwich carpark directly serves the Francis Peek Community Centre with its range of community activities. Organisers of these activities need to bring equipment and therefore need to drive.

Typically, any specific activity will have a far larger catchment area than a generic green space. Leaders and participants therefore need to travel, and some need to come by car. Community Centres form a borough-wide network. These community activities are very sensitive to cost and Community centres have to keep their charges low. Additional costs of parking might make the difference in the viability of some activities. Again, I think you need to review your Community Impact Statement.

I understand from the Report that the proposal relates only to “off-street” car parks, and only inside the parks “within their boundary”, and therefore comes within your remit for a Single Member Decision.

I am surprised, therefore that under Key Issues – Rationale, the Report states that revenue made from the introduced parking charges can be re-invested in “Highways maintenance and road improvements projects”, while the possibility of using the funding for the parks is mentioned later in the Report as a Community Impact afterthought, that the parking charge “could potentially serve as an addition stream of revenue for use for the betterment of the parks.” As the profit from this proposal will be more than £150,000 per annum, I would hope that a benefit to the parks and their associated activities would be higher on your agenda.

This Report acknowledges the probable result of this proposal of increased parking pressure for residents in nearby streets. Such repercussions cut both ways. The proposal for Controlled Parking Zones (CPZ) in East Dulwich is also a Single Member Decision, but proposes specific parking bays directly associated with a range of community facilities, which surely come under your remit. I ask you to look closely at those CPZ plans and consider the risk they pose to the provision of services by those facilities.

According to National Statistics, local car ownership is 0.71 cars per household, and streets are currently parked to comfortable capacity by residents while accommodating the necessary parking for community facilities. The proposal involves the loss of many parking spaces to double yellow lines, particularly notable in the streets surrounding the East Dulwich Community Centre. The resulting parking space will be insufficient for the current resident owned cars and planners of the CPZ have stated that Parking will be displaced.

The bays to be placed in front of community facilities will be available for payment, but also will be open to residents. The scheme therefore will allow residents to block the parking spaces in front of every community facility. Indeed, since the CPZ planners have not denied that they might sell more Resident Permits than there are spaces available, residents may have no alternative but to occupy all the spaces intended for community facilities. For those who need to drive to a community building, once the CPZ is in place, even if they are able to pay, they will not be able park anywhere in the vicinity.

This Report states that charging is an effective way of reducing demand for parking spaces. Perhaps so, but it discriminates only according to ability and willingness to pay. It will favour the lifestyle-drivers and will likely force out the most financially vulnerable services in our community centres and reduce access to our parks to those who most need it.

The first point in your Report as the “Rationale” is that “Off-street car parking within our parks provides a small but appreciated service to the low proportion of visitors who choose to drive by car to our parks.“ I am sure you intend that as a simple statement of fact. It does however read more like an intention that your plans will favour a lifestyle-driver elite.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Henry_17 March 17, 09:23PM

Great, now i must pay £6 to run the Saturday 5k

--------------------
Henry

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Sally Eva March 18, 08:34AM

Or you could go on the bus. Four bus routes run up the west side of the Rye and two run up the east side. The 78 and the P12 run to the northern tip.

If you are a runner then you might consider it within walking distance of four railway stations: in distance order nearest first Peckham Rye, Nunhead, East Dulwich and Honor Oak.


Henry_17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great, now i must pay £6 to run the Saturday 5k

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by goldilocks March 18, 09:24AM

a 5k takes you 3 hours???

Henry_17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great, now i must pay £6 to run the Saturday 5k

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Penguin68 March 18, 09:32AM

a 5k takes you 3 hours???

Presumably includes time to arrive, change, warm up, get to the start position and run through the start line, finish, warm down, change, perhaps meet up with fellow athletes...

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Upwind March 19, 12:50AM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are local, your children are school age and
> have no disabilities
>
> If you have to walk more than 20-25 minutes,
> particularly if one child is in a push chair (even
> if another is school age) then you will not feel
> that much like 'enjoying' the park when you get
> there, particularly with the walk back ahead of
> you. Neither will your children. Mind you, as a
> policy it will keep out those awful extended
> families, people with dogs, the elderly, all those
> ghastly people who cannot afford to live nice and
> close (within easy walking distance from a park).
> Effectively keeping out the hoi polloi (anyone who
> can't readily afford the parking fee, even) is a
> wonderful policy for the council to pursue. It
> will be Dulwich parks for Dulwich people. It will
> make the parks so much more private for those with
> adjacent houses. And once the parks are unused
> enough, well we can get rid of them.

I believe there are regular buses serving our parks, or perhaps people could cycle?
I am one of the hoi polloi who couldn't or wouldn't pay the parking fees. In fact I made a conscious decision over ten years ago not to own a car, despite having two young children. The money I saved by doing that is spent on public transport, the occasional cab fare and the even more occasional hire of a car when we really need one. As a consequence, we are all much healthier and fitter, with the kids now accomplished cyclists and happy to walk a mile or two to get somewhere.
Yes, it may make some people decide to stay away from Dulwich Park in favour of their closer local park. Good, especially on those busy summer weekends when the car park resembles a major junction in Rome during the rush hour!
Too many people in this area drive purely for the convenience of it. This policy will weed a few of them out and generate some much needed revenue for the council.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by MarkT March 21, 11:13AM

The consultation has been extended till 13th May.

[moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]

The consultation will include - Engagement with specific user groups to gain an understanding of impact of proposed measures on those with disability and on regular users i.e. dog walkers to ensure these users have an opportunity to engage and provide their views."

Note, not "e.g. dog walkers" but i.e. dog walkers". I think anybody who uses the Francis Peek Centre or whose children play football or other organised activities in our local parks might need to respond. Also anybody who has difficulty walking, as East Dulwich is prominent on the Council's map of "Open Space Deprivation" which shows distances from the nearest park. The Decision Maker is:

Deputy Leader of the Council and Cabinet Member for Culture, Leisure,
Equalities and Communities – Councillor Rebecca Lury
To deputise for the Leader of the Council in his absence by representing the borough
at external events, within the council and when necessary chairing cabinet.
To improve the council’s engagement with all Southwark’s communities, especially
those who are hardest to reach. To be responsible for strengthening the voluntary
and community sector, supporting volunteering across the borough.
To promote leisure and sport in the borough and increase the quality of the
borough’s parks and green spaces. With the Cabinet Member for Community Safety
and Public Health to increase physical activity and resident use of all our park and
leisure spaces.
To champion equality and diversity across the borough and be a champion for
Southwark’s varied and diverse communities.
The cabinet member will have particular responsibility for:
 strengthening and working with Southwark’s voluntary and community sector
 community councils and community engagement
 relationships with faith communities
 Southwark diversity standard
 equalities and equal opportunities
 volunteering and volunteer champions
 civic issues
 cultural strategy
 libraries
 events
 free theatre visits for primary children
 working with organisations in the borough’s thriving culture communities
 increasing access to arts and culture including for vulnerable groups
 parks
 trees
 biodiversity
 performance of the council’s leisure contractor
 leisure investment
 working with grassroots leisure communities
 play and leisure activities for young people
 swimming and gym use
 working with grassroots sport communities
 promoting sport and increasing physical activity
 youth centres.
Cabinet Member for Community Safety and Public Health – Council

I don't see i.e. providing car parking for dog walkers in that job description.
MarkT

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by TheArtfulDogger March 21, 11:45AM

It's all about the money

Reading the document [moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]

It covers 6 parks with car parking facilities

6. Responsibility for the management and maintenance of these car parks rests with the Environment and Leisure Department. The maintenance costs are included within the Grounds Maintenance contract and cannot be specifically identified. However, for the purposes of this report, an assessment has been carried out which estimates that the total cost of the carparks is £42,000 per annum.

.....

29. The estimated annual parking charge income for 2019-20 is necessarily an estimate and past experience has shown that the figure could change based on external variables that the council cannot control. The surplus planned is modest and allows for a margin of an error so that if the income is less than anticipated it will not result in a net deficit.
30. It is estimated that this exercise will generate at least £200k of net income in Parks and Leisure Division and this is being incorporated in the council’s budget setting process for 2019/20.
31. Staffing and any other future maintenance costs connected with of the car parks parking will be contained within existing Parks and Leisure Division revenue budgets


However
18. There is a risk that new restrictions may cause parking to be displaced and, indirectly, have an adverse impact upon road users and neighbouring properties at that location. However this cannot be entirely pre-empted until the recommendations have been implemented and observed.

Thetefore they expect to make over £200 thousand a year from the parking charges plus remove the £42 thousand a year they currently spend on car parks but to do this they would have to guarantee cars park in the parks and not in the surrounding streets ... I wonder how they can do that ....


IMHO £42 thousand a year spread amongst all council tax payers is pennies each and hardly a justification to make car users pay and remove the cost from non car users , especially as we all know council tax bills go up but never down so non car users won't see that saving in their annual bill

Whilst they put a thin veneer over it all talking about environmental impact, they are still planning for over 100,000 hours of paid parking each year, if they really wanted environmental changes then they would make it restricted to disabled users and electric cars only

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Rockets March 22, 04:30PM

The Friends of Belair Park have organised a meeting with Southwark Council to dispute the parking charges.

If you want to make your voice heard the meeting will take place on Saturday 30th March 2019 at 2.30pm at Belair Recreation Rooms (Gallery Road). Friends of Belair are encouraging as many people as possible to attend.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Penguin68 April 01, 09:32AM

Does anyone know whether these charges actually have been introduced yet?

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by singalto April 01, 10:04AM

I walked through Dulwich park on Friday afternoon and saw no sign of payment machines.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Penguin68 April 01, 10:09AM

Thank you

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