DJKillaQueen

The highway code is clear regarding zebra crossings. That some drivers ignore it or worse still have no knowledge of it (in france for example drivers happily drive over zebra crossings, pedestrian on it or not) is the responsibility of the drivers concerned.

I think your two previous posts Tom prove Huguenots point perfectly. There is no animal cruelty at Zippo's circus.....

http://www.examiner.com/article/dollar-no-longer-primary-oil-currency-as-china-begins-to-sell-oil-using-yuan Is the US dollar about to lose it's place as the premier global currency? It's well known that China has been propping it up for a while now but this is a direct challenge to that.

But the NHS is a bit different. It's there to treat illness....or do we start to say it should only treat those with life threatening conditions? And we all pay into it. Of course I agree there isn't a bottomless pit of money to spend on these things....and hard decisions have to be made along the way. But that is also why in many conversations and debates (esp around resources and money) I come back to the importance of community, and how we all have a responsibility to help our immediate communities to be supportive and cohesive ones. You would agree with me I think when I say that in this country, far too many people are for themselves only, give little to anyone or anything, and expect the authorities to sort the rest (without wanting to pay for the cost of it all of course).

Yes it is complex, which is why it is right that these issues/ requests are dealt with case by case. I think the law could accomodate that approach though. H...you make some valid pioints. Where I'd disagree with you though is in things like the provision of counselling by the NHS. Currently it is not avaialable when patients need it most (waiting lists of on average six months) and it's rationed to 12 or 24 sessions. That's one example of how treatment that really can work in some cases just isn't funded enough. However, we think nothing of funding a bottomless pit of anti-depressants. Where I do agree with you though is where lack of social cohesion plays a role, and I would include the level of social ignorance in that equation too. The former is hard to do something about, but the latter is just a question of education surely. My view is that if the general public, employers and so on, had better attitudes to and understanding of mental health issues, it would make things easier for those who suffer from them.

H is right regarding the types of banners these protestors use. Two years ago when I was encountered them, they had pictures of clearly abused tigers on their placards. Totally irrelevant to the circus.

I agree that there are treatments for depression. Many of them are not cures though. However, we also have to consider that in Tony's case, he was suffering a condition that completely trapped him in his body, with no hope of ever being free of that. I don't personally think any anti-depressant treatment was ever going to make much difference in his case. The depression that some with debilitating conditions suffer from is the result of their condition. I agree that we as a society should only ever allow assisted suicide as a last resort, after all other options have been explored and efforts made to take away the need for that. Sadly though, mental health resources are underfunded in the UK and the level of help many sufferers need just isn't available unless they can pay for it. We rely too heavily on medication, which isn't a cure, and not enough on stategies designed to help a sufferer better manage and cope with depression. And then there is the stigma associated with depression in the wider world, from employment down to social stigma.

The film has nothing to do with the circus either. No-one denies animal cruelty exists. Many of us just don't see it existing anywhere at Zippo's circus.

Wow, creationism has a scientific aspect to it? And these people are allowed to lecture on Creation Science at universities, schools and churches? To be mocked indeed.

Really? All time low? Are you sure about that? I can think of many really awful exchanges that don't involve myself or El Pipe. But those often at the centre of those exchanges are also those that contribute most to debate so it's horses for courses.

lol ;)

LondonLogCo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Now, who round here owns a gun ? > > * rubs chin * Not me, but funnily enough, I now have a strong urge to go get one ;D

Hysterical now? Any interpretation is your view only El Pipe...not an absolute.....and as I have pointed out, your understanding of that statement was wrong. Had you asked me to expand to clarify then I would happily have done so but no, you insist you know better, resort to sarcasm and dictate, and ridicule me for challenging you on it.

I think El Pipe would probably be too much of a coward (like many who start arguments or insult on forums) to face up for a live duel.....and petty is absolutely spot on.

You took a post of mine, quoted it in your own post and added words. Anything [and we are talking guns here] that tips the balance in the favour of the victim and rids society of another scummy thief [ie kills him] is blah I did not write the words in brackets.....that is YOU putting words into MY posts....duh. How old are you? 6? Trying to provoke some kind of reaction from me? And I am not biting ok?

See that's exactly what I mean about ignorant dismissal of mental health issues. Depression is not limited to some disabled people. It debilitates a heck of a lot of people without physical disability too. If you'd ever suffered from clinical depression SF you'd never have written such a dimissive comment. Tony Nickleson went to court becuase he wanted a humane and painless death. Seeking a judgement or change in law would have helped other people in that situation too. Instead he died a slow and painful death....because starvation is just that....... If you can't see that SF then you are truly without feelings.

Ah so you edit people's posts (and claim that's what they wrote) because of some personal gripe then? Finally we have the truth.

Rhi Rhi may have had clothes on for a change, but she cut most of her hair off instead! Liking the Brazilian slot though. And will Jay Z be bringing Beyonce with him?

'DJKIllaQueen - not sure why you are calling me an extremist, you are bad as Huguenot! Is it extreme that I don?t agree horses should be made to walk on 2 legs? Are walking horses natural? ' If you read my posts you will see I am speaking from my experience of a couple of protestors that tried to stop me going to the circus two years ago. Thay clearly were ignorant, rude and extreme. To accuse a person of supporting cruelty to animals, as they did I, simply because I did not agree with them regarding the horses at the circus, is extreme and typical of the kind of people that front these kinds of campaigns. Also Thomas, have you ever seen the show at Zippos? I've been every time they are in town for the past three years and I've never seen the horses made to 'walk' on two legs. I have seen them rear up as part of the act a couple of times but never 'walk'. It's this kind of misinformation that makes me have no time for your argument. But you are at least consistent in that you think no animal should work. I, like many, disagree with you on that. It is at best a moral argument but not an argument about cruelty, if an animal is well looked after and cared for. Animals in captivity at least have the benefit of vetinary treatment if things go wrong. In the wild they don't. And yes, Zippo's does pay for use of the park and are required to obtain an events licence etc. You can easily verify that with the council, and parks management team.

I have to agree...Coldplay aren't working for me either (and I like their music).

Interesting post LadyD. There's no doubt that there is tension between different groups, be they along cultural or ethnic lines. Rye Lane is very diverse in that respect.

Religious protestors may be mad (my view only of course lol) but as long as any protest or act of protest is within the law then freedom of speech stands. Where things get cloudy though are where the state are too oppressive on what they allow as freedom of speech and what they suppress (always subjective depending on the state). It's a classic argument about the line and where it's drawn isn't it. We like to think we are fair in the UK with this line, but I'm not sure that's always true.

I think there are a lot of checks and standards that have to be satisfied regarding animal welfare, and any reputable organisation or business will adhere to them. People that engage in animal cruelty don't generally put it on display for all to see. I think the fact that Zippo's stables and paddock and horses are there for all to see at any point says it all. These are very well cared for animals. The Police action may well have been OTT, but again, we don't know if a complaint was made to them. Some protestors can be pretty full on. These people know they have no case. If they did, they could lobby the RSPCA, government etc. They pick on the public because their only hope of achieving their agenda is to put the circus out of business. They've protested pretty much every time the circus comes to twon for years now. I doubt they'd ever convinced a single person to throw away their ticket and not attend the show. I'd have far more time for them and their cause if they focused on genuine aspects of animal cruelty but sadly, it's often the nature of extremists, to lose perspective in what otherwise is a genuinely valid cause in itself.

'Having retracted that I'm glad you don't feel that way, try choosing your words more carefully in future.' Still you are putting words in I haven't written. Why don't you try reading what people axctually write in future (instead of offering the pompous advice above). I assume you are reading the same language as the rest of us. Trying to have a debate with someone who rewrites what people actually write, is not for me I'm afraid, and you just make yourself look stupid El Pipe.

I agree with Saffron and Michael here. Like I said, the circus is used because it's an easy target. I don't know how intrusive this years protest has been (maybe I'll see for myself tonight) but my experience of two years ago only polarised me against the protestors on this particular case. I also too suspect the claim of tendon damage to be a red herring. Horses tendons are exremely strong. It's what enables them to jump and kick, and rear up when feeling threatened, but also tendon strains are common from a whole variety of use, just like we humans pull muscles here and there. That's why we have vets (wild animals rarely have the benefit of vetinary care). For me it's clutching at straws because after all, what else is there to find to support a claim of cruelty? Nothing.