Rockets

Well, it appears the Oracle of all Such Things disagrees with you....see below..thanks Ex-!!! 😉 Earl, I am sure you'll be about to launch an argumentative attack on Ex- anytime now.... And that was exactly the point I was making. Earl, you may think it is a matter of legal fact but the court of public opinion sees them as bad cyclists and it is this type of behaviour that leads to calls for more regulation. This whole debate was stimulated by my experience of such bad cyclists in Soho. Also, a point to remember as well, is that these delivery drivers have been propping up cycling counts for a long time and whilst it might be good for Will Norman's "cycling growth" numbers in London it's really, really bad for the perception of cycling and cyclists.

This is where you're exposing you flawed argument style because I never mentioned illegal mopeds. You did. You referred to push bikes that have an electric conversion kit added (new rear bike wheel and battery slung from under the frame) that can go up to 70 mph as illegal mopeds. The point I was making was the below and based on my experience of walking through London and seeing the push bikes with electric conversion kits being ridden badly and in a way that endangered pedestrians: So the issue here is, again, someone makes Point A, you throw in Point Q and then accuse them of something based on your insertion of Point Q and accuse them of stating Point Q when they did nothing of the sort. And you've done it again. It's just the your flawed "debating" style.

Earl, no honestly, you lose me. We start at Point A and you take it around the houses and try to land a punch by making Point Q which has no bearing on Point A at all....

No, according to the admin update at the time of the removal someone asked for the name to be removed (even though it is all public information).

Earl - you're meandering and losing me again.....what I was arguing about was that push bikes with an electric conversion kit are not identified as mopeds by those pedestrians that they are causing huge problems for. They are seen as bad cyclists. Are you advocating that push bikes with electric conversion kits should be registered as you seem to want to treat them differently to other forms of cycling? But the police can via ANPR.

Someone is seemingly policing what gets posted on the forum.....the public names of Dulwich Society sub-committee chairs who are award winning active travel lobbyists and now Dulwich Roads posts that people have been critical of......that'll get the conspiracy theorists going....;-) March46 maybe repost it again and let's see what happens....

Earl I am the one not ducking the question I can assure you. Those delivery bikes which are wrecking havoc in central London and putting pedestrians at risk are not, in the eyes of the public, motorbikes. They are bicycles. Do you agree or disagree?

But to members of the general public, walking around Soho for example, how do they present themselves (and I remind you this is where this part of the discussion started)?.....;-) Do people look and think "oh look there's a bad cyclist" or do they think "oh look there is someone riding (badly) an illegally modified pushbike that should actually be classified as an electric motorbike/moped due to its power output but of course only if it had a number plate, road fund licence and indicators.......which it doesn't...." They present as a bad cyclist and this is what is moulding the negative perception towards cyclists - delivery riders, Lime bike riders, red light cyclists, pavement cyclists are all doing massive harm to the perception of cyclists and to anyone who cycles, like me, this is something that has to be urgently addressed.

A pushbike with an electric motor that takes it to 70mph is still a pushbike - it's just a pushbike with an electric motor. Do you agree or not?

But Kurt - that was what the preceding "drivel" was about - Earl trying to claim that those are mopeds....which I think we can all agree they are not. They are bikes with an electric motor fitted.

But a push bike with an electric motor is not a moped...the attached is not a moped...is it - thats the drivel being spouted on here people claiming that is a moped? Maybe lets put this to an emoji vote: All those who think these are bikes click the laughing emoji All those who think they are mopeds click the confused emoji Honestly.....

But this is the modus operandi of Dulwich Roads - every bit of out of shape street furniture and they launch into a tirade about dangerous driving and try to suggest speeding vehicles caused it. Clearly they don't even check to see whether any vehicle was involved before they post..... The link to the picture seems to have disappeared from March46' original post....

No just reminding you that there are a myriad of reasons why a vehicle might hit a bollard and amplifying that point to those who love to claim every accident is because of dangerous driving or speeding. Gotta say I love your myopic editing - I didn't just highlight cycling you know......well done! 😉

Clearly. But no-one drives their vehicle onto the pavement and into a big block deliberately. Maybe they swerved to avoid someone cycling badly or a pedestrian walking into the road looking at their phone, or maybe they had a medical emergency and the block did what it was supposed to do....this is the thing...no-one seems to know and everyone is guessing....including Dulwich Roads and as I said before they have got things badly wrong previously as they jump to their anti-car conclusions.

To be fair a lot of strawman stuff was applied by Dulwich Roads on their original post. Has the block been lifted out of it's housing - i.e. it's still in the hole it was originally sitting in? The problem with everything Dulwich Roads posts is that they are just guessing/suggesting what they think happened - they don't know that it was hit by a dangerous driver - they want their readers to think that but they don't know that is actually the case. They have got things very wrong in the past because they are guessing/hoping.

But it is still a bike isn't it - a bike with a motor? You're not trying to suggest that these aren't bikes are you and that these delivery drivers aren't cyclists?

No because it is, in fact, a standard pushbike converted to go 70mph....the kits are sold to go on a bog standard bike..... What's that saying that it if looks like a duck, walks like a duck....;-)

Because the majority are push bikes with an electric motor fitted to the rear wheel (they just replace the rear wheel) and a battery pack hanging off the frame - they are not electric mopeds - some are 250W and perfectly legal but I suspect many are over 250W and not legal (but can easily be bought online - take a look at places like this: https://myperfectebike.com/ where you can buy a kit that will take your push bike to 70mph!!). And like Lime bikes are doing harm to the reputation of cyclists because everyone sees them as bikes and many of them are being ridden inconsiderately and dangerously - the term bl**dy cyclists tends to apply to anyone on two wheels with pedals whether they are a push bike, push bike with an electric motor, Lime bike or cargo bike ;-)!!! But clearly not working....which leads us back to my point on the need for tighter legislation, increased policing or limitations of cycle use.

As usual, there is a lot to unpack from a Dulwich Roads post! Do they know it was a tank-like vehicle that did the damage? Was the vehicle that caused the damage being driven dangerously or being driven above 20mph.... It seems that a lot of ideological guesswork gets applied to their posts - they are clearly not in accident investigation - thankfully!! 😉

They're still bikes though aren't they? Or do you categorise these differently? My trip to London was in the evening so far fewer social or commuter cyclists around but the problems posed by those cyclists are very different. I love how you position this as an "anecdote" trying to diminish the experience. Unfortunately, and the very point I was trying to make, this is the growing experience of most pedestrians and this is why there are likely to be increased calls for something to be done - and that leads down one path and that is tighter legislation, increased policing or limitations of cycle use (as has already happened in some city centres). And then that becomes a problem for ALL cyclists - myself included. In the desperate attempt to try to accelerate growth in cycling the powers that be have turned a blind-eye to pedestrian safety - I do laugh that you somehow think Lime bikes and delivery bikes are different to other forms of cycling yet the growth in cycling London, in the main, has been driven by Lime bikes and delivery bikes.

Because the majority of OneDulwich email subscribers are from the Dulwich area. Southwark Cyclists clearly not and it reminds us how much the cycle lobby tried to influence local consultations by any means necessary. Southwark Cyclists claim to be the largest urban cycling group in the world with over 9,000 members....one wonders how many of them tried to influence the Dulwich consultations. So thanks! 😉

There's more....good grief....;-) Seriously though, is this just bad luck? But still bikes right? I mean the "growth" in cycling is being propped up by Lime bikes so you can't exclude them from being categorised as cyclists can you? A bike between 35kg and 65kg powered by an electric motor to 15.5mph carries a lot more mass than a standard pushbike and therefore can do a lot more damage. Can it not? Clearly not the same as a car but still a potential risk.

So CBT was introduced in 1990 as a way to reduce accidents caused by inexperienced motorcycle riders. I do wonder if we are heading towards something like that with cyclists. I headed into Soho on Saturday for dinner and here is why I think something has to be done as bad cycling is becoming a big issue. We got the train to Blackfriars as London Bridge and Victoria lines were closed for engineering. As we came out from our house someone cycled a Lime bike up the pavement (our road is very quiet so no need for them to be on the pavement) Walked to West Dulwich and went head-to-head with another Lime bike on the pavement towards BelAir park. When we left Blackfriars, to walk to Soho, we started crossing the pedestrian controlled cycle lane on the far side of the bridge. Five bikes were approaching, three from Blackfriars Bridge and two from the opposite direction - it was two Lime bikes and three delivery cyclists. Not one of them stopped for the red light and the pedestrians had to pause their crossing even though they were under green. The walk to Soho was uneventful but Cambridge Circus was a nightmare. Lots of pedestrians trying to cross under the green light and Lime and delivery bikes trying to weave their way around them even though lights for them were red. Soho was full of the sound of ring/ring as delivery bikes barrelled down Old Compton Street. Now, I think it is ludicrous that the pedestrianisation of Old Compton Street was removed as now the pavements are over flowing and people are stepping into the road and the speed of the delivery bikes is causing an issue. Dinner was lovely and then walked to Haymarket to get an Uber - felt like every time you crossed the road at a pedestrian crossing or traffic lights you were running the gauntlet of delivery cyclists in a hurry and rowdy groups of (probably drunken) Lime bike riders. As we waited for our cab we saw a lot of cyclists weave through pedestrians crossing at the Piccadilly towards Leicester Square junction some moving at real speed (looked like groups of kids on wheelie bikes) and a number of very near misses - one involving a parent pushing a buggy. In the Uber on the way home saw a cyclist on a racing bike ignore a red light and nearly collect another cyclist who was actually pushing their bike across the crossing. Finally as we headed down Brixton Road there was a weaving Lime bike rider swinging wildly from the bus lane into the main lane. The reason: he was typing away on his phone with one hand - whilst wearing full ear headphones so chances are he had no idea anyone was behind him. And this is why something will be done about poor cycling on our roads because it is becoming a real issue that not only endangers the cyclist but also other road users and especially pedestrians.

Malumbu, are you Frank Spencer...you seem to be the most accident prone person on the planet!? I have cycled and driven huge amounts yet have nothing like your rap sheet....a few near passes when on my bike, one very close one on Battersea roundabout where a driver drove across me when they were turning left and once fell off my friends bike at uni because I had no idea how cycle clips worked, stopped at a set of red lights and did a slow mo, comedy fall onto the grass verge...much to both my and the drivers amusement!

To be fair Lime bikes weight 35kg and many cargo bikes are pushing 65kgs.