Rockets

It seems Lime and Forest are drinking in the last-chance saloon in Islington.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yj6xy7n68o Council puts hire bike operators on 'last warning' Islington Council has said e-bike hire companies Lime and Forest are on their "last warning" to tackle dangerous parking and poor rider behaviour - or face losing permission to operate in the borough.

In your mind maybe, but the conclusion of the report has not has it? It clearly concluded that LTNs were not the drivers of lower car use didn't it? So, you can look at that report and argue until the cows come home about whether it was incomplete, buried, too technical for the general public, no longer funded...blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter - the point is that the report did not support a narrative TFL would be happy to see made public (TFL basically admits as much in the FoI exchanges) - do you agree with that? I can guarantee you that if the report did say that LTNs do reduce car use TFL would have encouraged UoW to publish it and you would have read all about it in a Peter Walker "exclusive";-). This is the problem with activist research - if the paymaster doesn't like the narrative then they won't put it out and it happens in every industry. The other side of the argument of course is they are using tools available to them to flag the reality of how some organisations and public bodies are hiding things from the public as it doesn't suit their narrative. I think it's known as holding them to account. It's why we have FoI's because so much has been hidden/buried in the past across a wide range of subjects.

Might that also be because the report didn't come to the conclusions UoW and TFL needed it to - the report concluded that LTN's did not actually reduce car use? Like here in an excerpt from the report and the reminder from TFL about everything being FOI'able but that no-one outside of TFL knew about the study (that stuff is smoking gun gold is it not - I mean what else could they possibly mean?): While there is evidence that respondents living in areas with more LTN roads do use a car less frequently, there is only weak evidence that this could be driven by the LTN itself. Once other area- level and infrastructural characteristics are accounted for, there is not a significant effect associated with car use. This suggests that the lower car use in areas with more LTN roads is the result of the other area-level and infrastructural characteristics rather than the LTN.

Hmmm @DulvilleRes - the evidence would suggest otherwise.

I presume you are basing my objection on the basis of my objection to the Dulwich Square debacle? If you are you may want to look back and you will find examples of me championing more space for pedestrians...but you know what they say about the truth and a good story.... Anyway.....enough of me responding to one of your usual attacks....I would challenge you on whether cycling is pretty unbeatable for moving people across the capital on the basis that, in my mind, the large majority of the growth in cycling is not coming from moving people across the capital but a growing number of people doing perfectly walkable journeys on Lime bikes and the likein the centre of London. As a teenager on my first exploratory journeys into London (apologies to my my and dad as they didn't know I was going into town - or the football for that matter!) I would arrive at Charing Cross and jump on the Northern Line to Leicester Square for a night out at what I think was called Buzz Bar (awful bar but great for under-age drinkers!) - until I realised it was quicker to walk that journey. I honestly think a lot of the growth in cycle stages is because people are jumping on Lime bikes to do very short journeys - it's one of the things the Dutch government is concerned about that the proliferation of e-bikes is creating a generation who won't walk or cycle (conventional bicycles) anymore and so are less fit. By the same measure you then agree with the conclusions of the panel that one of the causes of bus delays are the provision of cycle infrastructure? Of course Travel Watch has their recommendations but very interesting that during the expert panel (I believe) it was the man from Travel Watch who said there was increasing thoughts that those bus lanes with the most interventions were some of the worst performing.

To be fair @Earl Aelfheah according to the bus driver union representative on the London Assembly meeting buses are also being delayed/slowed by cyclists in bus lanes too. Now, as I said before, all the the experts agreed that cyclists in bus lanes was needed for cyclist safety but also agreed it was having an impact as a bus can only travel as fast as the slowest cyclist as they cannot safely pass them due to the width of buses. To also be fair I believe, if I remember correctly, that it was also the Travel Watch person who suggested that many think that those routes with the most interventions (he cited bus gates as an example) are some of the worst performing.

@malumbu you need to stop knee-jerking, no-one said "it's all the cyclists fault". The subject matter experts invited to the London Assembly Transport Committee discussing why bus speeds have declined so much said that it was one of the contributing factors, certainly not the only factor and no-one on here has made that claim. But clearly lots of bus journeys are being impacted else the experts would not have claimed that cycle infrastrucutre is one of the contributing factors. Did you watch the YouTube video of the Committee meeting? What are your thoughts on what the assembled experts say in relation to that?

Hmmm, you may have overlooked walking as that performs the best in regard to your metrics.

One of the challenges discussed is the reallocation of spaces dedicated to speed up buses to cycles and this has been identified as one of the causes of slowing of the buses. Congestion is also being caused by the removal of space allocated to all road vehicles. This is why the guy from Travel Watch said vehicular traffic has been consistently dropping during the same period as the slowing of buses has been getting consistently worse. Clearly roadworks are a big issue and the guy from the bus company said this was being temporarily exacerbated by the removal of alternative routes around roadworks.

I know it has always been bad around there during school drop-off and pick-up but has it got worse since the redesign of Hunts Slip?

And they were concluding that some of the interventions were squeezing traffic making less and less available roadspace even though there was less vehicular traffic on the roads. The Travel Watch person said that he could not find stats on how much of the road space had been dedicated to cycle lanes or shared usage but he did cite the example of Chiswich High Road where the bus lanes had been removed to facilitate dedicated cycle lanes (I am not sure you would consider that Central). I thought the debate was very balanced; that they acknowledged the problems caused by slowing buses, discussed all of the factors contributing to it yet acknowledged the challenges of balancing priorities but it was very clear that one of the contributing factors is the provision of cycle infrastrucutre (that they all acknowledged was needed to keep cyclists safe). Well intended changes can often have negative consequences. @Penguin68 I am going to watch the video again where they mention growing evidence that some of the roads with most interventions to aid bus flow are some of the worst performing. It seemed to be something there was consensus that needed more analysis but it wasn't clear what they meant by interventions as they mentioned bus gates which are more of an LTN thing.

Unfortunately some people don't want balance and reasonableness as it doesnt suit their personal agenda. It's clear there are problems because the approach to active travel has been anything but balanced.

"Choice of materials"....hmmm what might that be in relation too...please see other thread about people crashing their bikes in Dulwich Square? In comedy, timing is everything. It was but @malumbu clearly thinks adults and children crashing their bikes on slippery materials in Dulwich Square is fair game and perfectly reasonable "facetious" material.

That was the point of the London Assembly Transport Committee meeting, to get expert opinion on what is causing the delays to buses. TFL is being called in January to present their thoughts.

@malumbu I would not joke about the slippery Dulwich Square as it sounds like a lot of people (and children) had accidents as a result so it is no laughing matter.

Have you watched the video @malumbu? Ouch! 😉

Three of the four experts reference it and they talk about it for some time as one of the key factors in bus delays. But they are talking about bus lanes - did you hear the union member saying that sharing bus lanes with bikes is great and needed for cycle safety but buses are being delayed by bikes as they cannot overtake them? I suggest no-one listen to @Earl Aelfheah and watches ten minutes of the video from the point at about 1 hour 7 minutes. It's very, very clear what they are discussing and the expert opinion they share.

Have you watched the video yet @Earl Aelfheah? I take it you have not.... P.S. you know the good news cited about cycling was in the very same report the bad news about buses was in? That bad news was the catalyst for the Transport Committee meeting with bus experts to try and determine why buses are getting slower and slower....

Well @Earl Aelfheah I am no expert, and I am sure you're not too, but the assembled panel of experts for the London Assembly meeting to address declining bus speeds would not agree with you. They all agreed that carriageway pressure is one of the major contributing factors (along with roadworks). One specifically cited cycle lanes, LTNs, 20mph limits and public realm as key factors affecting bus speeds. Interestingly later in the discussion they talk about growing evidence that routes with interventions are some of the worst performing. The guy from Travel Watch addresses the other vehicular traffic numbers and says that the number of other vehicles has been consistently decreasing whilst buses have been consistently getting slower. Apparently for every 10% drop in speeds they lose 6% of passengers. I would recommend watching from the timestamps I shared with @malumbu. Let's be clear they all acknowledge the challenge TFL has and the fact that cycle protection is important but all agree that the provision of cycle infrastrucutre it is an issue for average bus speeds (which is down to 7mph in central London apparently). I did love the question from an assembly member who said why is it an issue if when they cycle they do 15mph and buses are doing less!

He is a very considerate cyclist - mindful of his own safety but also mindful of vehicles wishing to pass him. Do you wish more cyclists cycled like that?

oh @malumbu......you know two days ago there was a London Assembly Transport Committee meeting to discuss why London buses are continuing to get slower and slower and why people are abandoning buses as a result....a panel of experts joined to discuss it - including a bus company, London Travel Watch and two union reps. Here is the link. Scroll to 1 hour 7 minutes in and have a listen for 10 minutes or so and see what the experts conclude and let me know what you think:

@malumbu absolutely spot on and cycling growth is great but there is a growing debate about at what cost to other modes - especially to walking and buses. There are many who think the Mayor and TFL has over-indexed on cycling and neglected other forms of transport and that buses, and bus passengers, are taking the brunt of it and, looking at the data, I think that is fair criticism.

@malumbu he is a very good cyclist - wearing a helmet, bright clothing, his positioning is very good, very well balanced between protecting himself and being mindful of allowing traffic to flow. He is what I would consider a well trained considerate cyclist (I count myself in that category too if you don't mind me saying!). The problem is there are so many people who have never had any sort of cycle training and just jump on a bike (Lime bike) and just wing it - putting themselves and others in danger. He certainly hasn't read articles saying he should take primary position and then just dumps himself there for the entirety of his journey - nor is his cycling erratic - you know that Lime bike look where the rider is hurtling along, often with phone in hand, weaving across the carriageway and using mind control to indicate they are about to turn! His comment about creating a positive road culture is spot on and I wish more cyclists would subscribe to that. Those described by @Angelina were doing the polar opposite. If all cyclists cycled like him I doubt anyone would have any gripes - but the big challenge is they don't.

No it's not - it's what was actually happening based on TFL's own data - based on fact. I am sorry you don't like how I phrased it but that does not make it dishonest. It is utterly ludicrous you are attacking those elements of what I said as I was not using that in the negative at all - merely highlighting the fact that suddenly growth has increased - I presume that because you are so upset by the use of the word decline you are equally upset by the use of the word increased. To be clear - and you have thus far managed to avoid commenting on this statement I posted earlier - the following is equally true isn't it? But it would also be true to say (to address the pedants amongst you) that there has been growth in cycle stages but between 2022 and 2024 cycle stage growth slowed dramatically and then between 2024 and 2025 increased massively (but no-one seems to know why). And that 43% growth in cycle stages from 2019 and 2025 is nowhere near the tenfold increase touted by the Mayor and TFL when they began their investment of around £800m in cycle infrastructure in 2021.

Err @Earl Aelfheah please do try to get the basis facts right at least - I asked people what the catalyst was for this year's growth after two years of growth decline/slowdown, else people may think you are engaging in dishonest rhetorical framing..... Genuine question - do you actually read my posts before launching an attack? Meanwhile on the buses - are we robbing Peter to pay Paul: https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/london/london-bus-speeds-worst-weve-seen-in-40-years-assembly-told/