sillywoman

Things good - Birth centre. Things complex - Kings. Edited to add a rider that you mean UCH Lewisham not Croydon? If you're talking Mayday Croydon - avoid like the plague.

> I really, really loved breastfeeding, and it was > thankfully easy (though not painless initially) > for me to do with both my girls. From the bottom > of my heart I wish I could hand that experience to > every women. I think that sometimes that desire to help can be the cause of some of what's perceived as 'bashing'. There are women, like you Molly, who want to help other women to be able to breastfeed their babies if that's what they want. They know that there's a lot of damaging and incorrect information out there that can seriously hinder those women at time when they are vulnerable and struggling. The 'evolutionary' comment earlier in the thread being a prime example. When these women raise their heads above the parapet to challenge those unsubstantiated and ill informed opinions by presenting scientific, researched and proven fact it's often seen as either a personal attack, or as a challenge to any decision to formula feed. I think it's rarely intended that way. Of course there are evangelists in both camps, who do neither camp any favours. It's unfortunate that the waters are clouded by the fact that formula and it's promotion is big business, compared to breastfeeding where the promotional budget is, errr zero (though maybe that's not strictly true now). I've no idea how to balance that into the equation, but I don't think it' impact can be completely ignored. I think the premiss of the debate is interesting. Certainly I've encountered women through the years who've been given advice that varies from the weird to the downright wrong and dangerous about breastfeeding, usually - as I said earlier - at a time when they are in pain, struggling and vulnerable so are seeking good advice/help, and all by healthcare professionals who should know better. Anyway, Molly, as usual, your post is oil on troubled waters. We all know that babyfeeding is, or can be difficult. It's right that - as you said - each case should be taken on it's own merits and treated with kid gloves. There are as many reasons why a woman will chose to formula feed as there are stars in the sky - for a lot of them it's a difficult decision. But, there are some for whom it's down to misinformation and it's those women that need the correct information on which to base their choice - maybe some of newmother's "rich" friends? It's fine to chose either way as long as you have the evidence on which to base your information. But, if we can't rely on health care professionals for good advice who do we ask? Who do we tell our daughters to ask when they're in difficulties - the best advice & information often comes from other women (step forward Fuschia et al), but as we've seen on this thread sometimes other women can also be woefully misinformed. Sometimes they have a cultural heritage that impacts on their perceptions of best-practice babyfeeding. Until the medical establishment cares to educate and train all it's professionals to the standard that breastfeeding counsellors and lactation consultants are trained to I would counsell any women seeking advice to be very wary of any 'information' given by a HCP without the necessary credentials. Some of it will be right, but some of it won't. I have no solutions, so now I think maybe I'm rambling a bit. In essence I think it's good to debate, it's bad to personalise. I hope this thread might be useful to some, I suspect it'll be a turn off for others. In the end whatever we do, we know our children will grow & breastfeeding is just the start - as someone else said, other life experiences are almost sure to have a bigger impact on the people they ultimately become, but if we don't want to be encompassed by a culture that makes the sight of a woman breastfeeding her baby taboo (and in some strata of our society that is already the case) then it's important to stand up for it - even at the risk of offending some of those who have chosen not to breastfeed, or couldn't breastfeed for whatever the reason. It should never be a woman's intention to offend another over her choices, but in pointing out facts when asked, sometimes that's a consequence.

The US caesarean rate is around 32.9% (2009 http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog/2010/12/21/us-cesarean-rate-reaches-record-high-rises-for-13th-consecut.html) Chantelle, compared to the UK rate of 24.8%(2010 http://www.birthchoiceuk.com/BirthChoiceUKFrame.htm?http://www.birthchoiceuk.com/England.htm) A significant difference I would say - couldn't really be classed as 'similar'. And I can't find any studies to prove your contention that "they plan more while ours are done in emergency = riskier" - I'd be really interested to know where you got that information from, or whether it's just based on your personal observations. I agree that the rooms were lovely, and that - just as with OBEM here- we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that all birth in the US is as it was in that one hospital, on that one day. However I have a sneaky feeling that it is fairly representative on the whole. But it's just a feeling - I've nothing to back it up with.

Townley, with the greatest of respect - that's a bit simplistic. There are extremely few full bursaries and they are seemingly rarely given, They are given (rightly I guess) to the extremely clever & gifted students, or (wrongly IMO) to those with associations with the school - so I'm told. Your averagely clever 11 year old would only be inline for a bursary if they've had sufficient tutoring/extra tuition in how to sit & pass the entrance exam. That cost's money - quite a bit if you're looking at the private tutor option - and for a lot of people more money than they have to spare from the family budget in the years leading up to sitting the exam. So essentially, for your averagely clever child in a family on a reasonable, but only average income it's not really an option to even consider applying to Alleyns. I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons and excuses for why Alleyns 'can't' offer their marvelous facilities to the local population, or to explain why they now have to park all their cars & coaches on our residential streets. And you're right, my views probably do come across as prejudiced -that's because, after 15 years of dealings with them (over 40 years in MrS's case), I probably am. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong though.

prdarling - but I bet the decor in your colleagues room was luuurverly.

No, not suggesting bribery & corruption. Just weariness at witnessing time & again the ability of a large institution with a lot of money at their disposal to walk all over the wishes of their much smaller neighbours. I wasn't really suggesting that they pay under the table to get what they want, rather that if you have such large sums at your disposal you're able to get what you want by whatever means possible - even if it takes a while. You've got the money to keep going & going 'till you get it. As a near neighbour over 15 years I've watched Alleyns buy up local residential property (at an overinflated price so no-one else would look at it) to extend their land, develop buildings taking away their staff parking so that Hillsborough & Thornecombe Rd have become congested all the time, not just school pick up time, they've built a theatre which adds to the increase in parking and disruption (incidentally, our local primary is using the Theatre for their end of term production this year, and for the first time they are having to charge parents for tickets in order to subsidise the cost of using it - so much for benefit to the community), don't even get me started on the sports facilities. As a local resident and someone who's life is very much based in and around Alleyns local community I have been dismayed to watch them expand and develop services for the very privileged children who attend & their families seemingly unchecked. If they offered any benefits at all to the local community then I'd feel much less uneasy. Sadly I see none & the few that were (the swimming pool) have been eroded & withdrawn. Their ethos is so clear that maybe Alleyns should consider new signage - "If you can't pay, you're not welcome".

You can begin to see why your friend thought her labour was so 'long & epic' Ruth. I guess compared to what passes for normal in the US - if OBEM is any accurate indicator - 11 hours would be considered exactly that :-S.

Was it just you & me watching it then Molly? I was very envious of their rooms - seemed a lot nicer than the ones at Kings (roll on our own midwife led unit). But, I was quite horrified by the way the midwives there seemed to actively promote the epidural option to women - expressing surprise and disbelief - "are you sure" = when one of the women said she'd like to see how she managed without. This at a point when the woman was only a couple of cms dilated. There didn't seem to be much in the way of positive affirmation or support for women who wanted to try to see whether they could get through their labour without drugs. There was a lot of negativity around the nature of labour & womens' ability to cope with it. Also, I was ::o at the woman who was being given an epidural just as she was saying she felt that she was able to push the baby out - with the midwife saying "we'll just get this in & check you" - Eh? "CHECK HER FIRST" I was shouting at the screen. Sure enough it seemed that she was ready and some minutes later she did push her baby out (though I do understand that may have something to do with the editing). And the lovely Tasha (was it?) who was given some kind of pethidine type of narcotic to chill her out so they could give her an epidural shortly after. No surprise that her baby wasn't at all happy then & the poor Love ended up with the Caesar that she'd been so wanting to avoid. I didn't feel that those women were being listened to at all. Their system seems to be all geared to 'get 'em in, wire 'em up, get it out'. Someone on Mumsnet suggested that a programme following a US midwife & a Uk midwife on a jobswap would make some interesting tv. I'd watch it for sure!

Sat & watched with increasing annoyance through my fingers. Made me very glad to be involved in maternity services here in the UK rather than in the very un-woman centered US. MrS had to leave the room as my 'tutting' was diving him mad :))

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Common sense prevails. or 'money talks' depending on your standpoint . . .

new mother Wrote: newmother - as an "intelligent or modern educated" woman you might want to reconsider your comment quoted below? There is no evidence base for it in science or research. Whilst views and opinions on the topic of breast & bottle may differ & tolerance of others views is to be encouraged & supported, if you propagate absolute tripe such as this you must always expect it to be challenged in the strongest terms. > > The further sad point is that for some weird > evolutionary reason breast feeding actually > doesn't even work for many women. Unfort, some of > these girls are so got at by propaganda that they > feel guilty about it. great shame and waste of > vital energy.

new mother has clearly been given some of that 'confusing advice' & now is passing it on to others - she and her completely non-evidence based views will probable make great telly. I hope she comes EMC.

Not very welcoming Malumbo :-S?

cuppa teaI know emc and she's very professional (as well as very lovely). I'm not sure if she's producing the piece, or just recruiting but rest assured her personal experiences won't be colouring the item at all. She is a Mum, just like the rest of us, and like many, many other women doing jobs in the media she's allowed to have an opinion too. I think she was just trying to reassure people that the piece would be balanced, rather than a 'breast-is-best' item.

EDmummy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They are only babies/toddlers for a very small > percentage of their lives. If you like the house, > the amenities and schools, go for it. You and the > kids will adapt for the short time that you need > to. They are, but it depends how many you have. I spent 10 years pushing a pram & that would be lot of time lugging up & down steps (4 children; 7 years between oldest & youngest). Ohh, I can feel the sympathy backache starting now . . .

Alongside all the great suggestions above Mook you might also consider a 'toilet campaign' for a while to get him used to seeing loos as a normal thing - i.e. every-time you go somewhere, be it a friends house for tea/play a shopping trip, a cafe or playground, make a point of saying something along the lines of "lets just check where the loos are so we know where to go if we need them", then go and 'look' at the loos before you do anything else. That way there's no pressure on him to use the loo (unless he happens to need to at the point where you're checking them out) - you're just looking, & if/when he does need to he'll already have seen them & know what to expect. It might just help 'normalise' them for him. Don't you sometimes wish you could just see what's going on in their little heads?

yes sophiec that's what I always come up against. I always felt I would be willing to carry a child for a close friend or relative should the circumstance arise, but to donate an egg to . . whoever would mean (to me) that my child is out there somewhere and I'm not able to protect, or help it in anyway. Also, I agree about the issue of 'what if'. What if one of my children should meet them as an adult and begin a long term relationship with them - all unknowing of their origin? How does that work? For these reasons egg donation wouldn't be for me unless I knew the prospective parents well.

Once, when baby number 2 was teeny tiny (a few weeks or less) MrS got a lady to come in and 'help' for a couple of sessions. She asked me where the hoover was kept - I didn't know. Am still not sure whether that's my proudest moment or my most shameful moment? Blamed lack of knowledge on baby brain of course :)).

Do babies still get the 'red book' to keep all their inoculation records in? If so, isn't there a description at the back somewhere of what each developmental check is, & what they do? Am sure my lot had it in theirs, but it was some years ago now.

F, you're not alone. It's my dream to have a cleaner and I keep telling myself 'one day, one day' but it just hasn't come yet - I'm gradually starting to realise that maybe it never will. If you could see my house then you'd know that superwoman is just a cartoon character. It's very easy to compare yourself & what you can achieve in your home with those who are lucky enough to have the luxury of a cleaner/ ironer/ gardner/ whatever, but don't do it -it's a slippery old slope! It's also OK to raise 4 children who know they're well loved and have a not so shiny home for them to live in. (Goes off muttering "it's also OK to raise 4 children etc.etc. . . . . ." ad infinitum.)

Brilliant & oh so true. How is it that my husband didn't get the super-hearing that I developed (seemingly over night with the birth of number 1) where the children are concerned? He has just never heard them. It would drive me mad when with number 2 (a terrible night sleeper - entirely my own fault and another story completely) I'd be up & down like a yoyo all night, only to have lovely husband ping awake at 7a.m.ish saying "well that was a good night wasn't it?" Ggrrrrr (6)

Tomorrow can only be better. Feed them easy sandwiches & get them into bed early. It won't kill 'em. Have hot bath and big glass of vino. Take a deep breath, chalk it up to a 'crap day' (happens in the life of every family) and start all over again. Sending calming, sympathetic vibes across ED to you. :))

My niece had a dummy until she was - shock-horror - five! My sister told her well in advance, I think she started preparing her at 4, that the dummy fairy was going to come the night of her 5th birthday and take them away because big girls don't have dummies (she'd started school by then & was aware that a dummy was only a 'home' thing). The actual birthday night my niece & sister pegged the dummies in a pretty bag on the washing line with a note & lo-&-behold, the next day the fairy had been and collected them. She also left a small 'Thankyou' gift for my niece and a short letter. No tears, no fuss. So if your little one is really finding it too painful to give up their dummy, or it just isn't the right time for you to do it yet, don't lose heart. They don't have to give it up so young. To paraphrase a well known RSPCS advert; A dummy is for babyhood, not for life. :))

What are 'gradeschool' children? Is it from age 5, or is it older? Sorry, just don't recognise the term.

You're in luck Anna27 Kings have just changed their policy on Dads staying overnight. From the beginning of June Dads are allowed to stay with Mums on the postnatal ward - though they will be sleeping in the chair - beds aren't provided!