Saffron

DaveR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I guess it's easy for me to say, not being > directly involved, but why should it be difficult > for anyone to accept the following propositions: > > there is evidence that breastfeeding provides > advantages to baby and mother > > consequently breastfeeding should be supported and > encouraged > > there are, however, many factors that impact on > the wellbeing of babies and mothers, including > many that are much more direct and signficant than > breast or bottle > > not breastfeeding, for whatever reason, should > never be characterised as 'failing' or > 'inadequate' or anything else pejorative. > What DaveR said! xx

All of that is true. However, it's also true that no study has ever shown that formula milk is the equal of breast milk. No true comparison can be made until the composition of breast milk is fully understood. Therefore I think it's odd to downplay the benefits of breastfeeding, as sometimes happens, so as not to step on the toes of people who didn't (for whatever reason). Breast milk is what thousands of years of evolution have and it is the standard to which all other forms of infant milks should be compared. Not the other way around, as has been the case in the past. Again it comes down to knowing the difference between Public Health issues and Personal Choice issues. Of course it?s not wrong to formula feed. But should we not also ask ourselves, is it right to downplay benefits of breast milk, a solution whose composition has yet to be fully understood.

Ellie78 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > (incidentally, read it yourself - don't take my > word - no bloody study has highlighted the > negative impact of having a baby and sleep > deprivation on the MOTHER'S IQ or their command of > grammar - typical...) > Actually, I think there have been investigations on this issue, but due to my lack of sleep, I can't remember where I read it!

Really pleased for you that things are moving forward quickly with the specilalist. I hope tests will give you some useful information to get your LO well as soon as possible. xx

LondonMix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This debate about artificial milk shows how full > circle we've come. I'm guessing the term formula > was coined to foster an association with science > and medicine as well as the idea of mathematical > precision. Spot on LondonMix...from wiki's history section on formula: "As physicians became increasingly concerned about the quality of such [infant] foods, medical recommendations such as Thomas Morgan Rotch's "percentage method" (published in 1890) began to be distributed, and gained widespread popularity by 1907.[9] These complex formulas recommended that parents mix cow's milk, water, cream, and sugar or honey in specific ratios to achieve the nutritional balance believed to approximate human milk reformulated in such a way as to accommodate the believed digestive capability of the infant." The wiki page on formula milk is actually quite interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_formula .

Interesting question, Ellie78... Here's a recently published article by Caspi et al (2007, from the journal PNAS): http://www.pnas.org/content/104/47/18860.short

Well said, Molly. It's not only a sensitive issue, but a devisive one as well. At the level of Public Health, more should undoubtedly be done to promote and support breastfeeding. While at a Personal Level, more could be done not to render judgement on individuals. These two goals unfortunately sometimes seem at odds. What I think most people would agree with is that we don't want to end up with a culture like in many places in the States (have lived there, so feel qualified to say this... deep breath), where bottle-feeding is frequently seen as the norm and breastfeeding is seen as redundant or weird, part of what has prompted such huge recent backlash by some breastfeeding mothers there.

shaunag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ehh, don't mean to be a smart arse, but breast > milk is "made or produced by human beings" too! Technically, no. It's synthesized in the human mammary gland.

Stress can definitely be the initial trigger for nail biting. The problem is that if the nail biting becomes an ingrained behaviour known as a "stereotypy" or "stereotypic behaviour", you will ultimately make the problem worse by using means to suppress it. Suppression of stereotypies leads to rebound behaviour, in which the problematic behaviour emerges even worse. This is a well-documented paradigm in behaviour across many species including humans. I totally agree with handstands's post about addressing anxiety as the root of nail biting. I think nose picking is generally a different issue. Children pick their noses because they itch or they're bored (the children, not the noses of course, haha!), etc. Give them their own little pack of tissues to keep in their pockets and bags. Keep a big box of tissues in any room they use frequently. Try to encourage the good behaviour and ignore the bad. xx

Why is "artificial" milk a "bad" thing, but an artificial heart or artificial blood or an artificial arm is a good thing? And, yes, formulated cow's milk is artificial in the sense that the original solution is manipulated by chemistry to produce the final formulation. The word artificial carries no emotive context in this sense. It simply means made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally. You won't find Aptamil growing on trees. Humans make artificially formulated milk by modifying the milk of other mammals, or other foodstuffs. However, colloquially, I wouldn't personally use the term "artificial feeding", because it could be confused with feeding expressed breast milk in a bottle. In which case, "artificial" would refer to the use of a bottle as a prop for feeding. Non of these are bad things in the right context. Nevertheless the benefits of breast milk should not be understated, because actually there is lot we're still learning about breast milk. For example, it's only recently been shown that human breast milk contains exosomes with RNA, ie small lipid-bound capsules carrying genetic messenger molecules. Here's one example: http://www.biolsci.org/v08p0118.htm . That being said, if parents need to give their baby formula, then thank goodness modern formulated baby milks are safe and generally well-tolerated. I'm only sad that the rise of the formula industry combined with the HIV/Aids epidemic has killed off the wet nursing profession. I would have loved to have had a wet nurse when my daughter was an infant. And I get really p1ssed off that so many HVs/GPs are still comparing breastfed babies to formula fed babies. The standard that nature designed through evolution is breast feeding, and we actually do a disservice to formula fed babies as well to make the comparison incorrectly. It's both misleading and unscientific, and does not promote either good breastfeeding or good research into better formulated milks.

silverfox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Vickki (Vicky?). Unlike some of the posts above > I will not do you the disservice of patronising > you by figuratively patting you on the head in a > condescending manner. > > You have posted in the Drawing Room to raise this > issue which deserves a good airing. So I would > like to question the following: > > "...I was incorrectly labeled male at birth > because the doctor simply didn't realise at the > time what I was and so my family raised me as male > and I was led to believe that I was a male. To cut > a long story short I was eventually recognised as > the female I actually am and treatment began to > correct my physical anomalies..." > > I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are > you saying you were born physically deformed > because you were a female (xx chromosomes) but had > male attributes, most noticeably a penis which led > doctors to mistakenly assume you were male? Or, > more probably, are you saying you were born a > female trapped in a male body - ie, rather than > physical deformity the issue here is a > psychological one. > The issue of gender is much more complicated than that. Briefly, the Y chromosome should act at several definite times to direct the production of a totally male foetus. Think of these like a set of switches. If the switches fail (for any number of reasons) during the production of a male foetus, then that phase can be left incompleted. For example this can result in a chromosomal profile of XY, but with a female brain and male genitals. That's just one variation. There are many. The reverse can be true for a female foetus that is accidentally masculized at any given point, generally where there is a failure of the hormone system to properly produce or respond to hormones. In short, the issue can be far more complicated than psychological.

caz6868 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > i there everyone,i am not sure where this cafe is > in dulwich,but i will say this... i am a mum of > five and have never wanted to take my big buggys > into a cafe area,health and safety serious > issue,tripping up over wheels.If get to a cafe and > see its a bit small or another buggy is onboard,i > plod on. But the experience many posters are trying to share is that this cafe seems sometimes not to want parents with prams even when there is room for them. Also, as you say you're not familiar with The Gardens, this cafe has a large fenced outdoor area in which prams could be folded and stored while parents dined, yet somehow The Gardens has missed an opportunity to do this. Many of us who have used this cafe off and on since its opening a couple of years ago are baffled by this, as the The Gardens was initially very family/buggy friendly. Yes, it's part of life that a buggy will limit parents in some respects, but it will give them freedom in others. It's also part of life that when people have experiences, good or bad, they often want to share them. Sadly it seems that parents' experiences on this thread are not great at The Gardens. Thankfully people have listed lots of nice alternatives. I'd rather go somewhere I knew I'd be welcome, than taking a chance on somewhere I might not. My friend's father (who lives near The Gardens cafe) told me that many planning applications had been made and turned down for the location (what was then the disused and boarded up Electrical Shop). Local residents (according to him) were not keen on having an eating establishment in this location. The opening of The Gardens was greeted with some scepticism by local residents, as I understand it. At the time, I couldn't see why, but perhaps now it's becoming clear. And did The Gardens really cancel the Wifi???? So their customer base is anyone who doesn't use a laptop computer or have a small child or buggy? Pfft, in East Dulwich? Good luck.

gillandjoe Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > R & A - you are wrong. The OP clearly stated that > she had no intention of giving breastfeeding a go > past the colostrum stage. You are also wrong in > assuming I meant to be confrontational - I was > actually just curious. Fair enough. > > The purpose of a forum is to discuss issues and it > is commonly accepted that threads have a tendency > to digress in interesting ways past the original > purpose of the first post. It is what most people > understand as a kind of conversation. I can't > understand why you would find a simple question > like, 'I wonder why you are so set against > breastfeeding, buttercup? Is there a reason? Just > interested' provocative and offensive. I also thought the statement I wonder why you are so set against breastfeeding, buttercup? was, shall I say, oddly phrased. This is particularly true in so far as the OP never says she's against bfing, merely that she does plan to bottle feed. However, she also says that to start she does want to breastfeed. I found the statement odd because it assumes for the OP a position she categorically does not take for herself in her opening post. I don't find it offensive (I'm pretty hard to offend, though!), but I can see how others might have miscontrued it. >It makes > me wonder how you make it through each day dealing > with people if a simple question like that offends > you. Get a life! Makes ME wonder how YOU get through each day dealing with people who you think can't deal with people! ;-) xx buttercupSE11, If you're happy to have a go at bfing to start, then I agree with others that you probably don't need to bring bottles and formula. Instead, make sure you have enough food, snacks, and drinks packed for yourself. If you labour late at night or early in the morning it may be hard to find snacks and food for yourself that you like. And you might be really hungry after the baby is born if your labour is long and you don't eat much during it. That being said, you have to pack your bag in such a way that you can sleep at night. If you wake up at night wondering if you should have put bottles in the bag, then just put some bottles in the bag. xx

You can litter train rabbits. Or, are you suggesting that the soiled litter is the source of the smell? Try a woodpellet litter. Better odour absorption even than the crystal ones.

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Saffron, you seem to always know quite a lot about > the medical stuff, are you a medical professional, > or just well read up on these things? I'm an academic with a hugely varied background, so I have easy access to lots of full text articles and search engines that most people don't use. I've tried not to post my credientials online because, well, it seems a bit meaningless in the sense that anyone could be anything online. It's better to give people information and let them mull it over for themselves, than to have them rely on my credentials for its usefulness.* I think it also helps that I'm on the computer a lot for work and to keep up with mates in far flung places. I often have insomnia (like now, sigh), and I don't smoke. So I tend to bumble about online instead of taking cigarette breaks. *That being said, I'm always happy to meet in person for a cuppa (or a pint?), and you can judge for yourselves. Sadly I've never made it to any of the Family Room drinks. These seem to be cursed for me, as the two attempts at these I made ended in spectacular vomiting episodes (how pertinent to this thread!) from Mr Saff and Little Saff before I'd even left the house!! Needless to say I didn't make it to either, and now feel doomed that I never shall. PS: Strawbs, I hope things are improving for your LO. Little Saff had a vomiting episode tonight (hence my insomnia) (and it wasn't even FR drinks night, FFS!), and I find it so upsetting. How do dairy products seem to defy the laws of physics so that 8 oz of milk become 3 L of curd? Now I'm faced with deciding whether she's really ill, or just over-tired... do I take her to nursery school in the morning or not?

Pugwash Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I frequent an ED cafe and were surprised to hear > from cafe owners that trade has gradually been > going downhill. A few regular clients set out to > ask former users why they never use the cafe any > more. The answers were that mums, buggies, > children had taken over most of the tables. No > problem with buggies as a clearly defined pram > park in the cafe. It was groups of mums who came > for a coffee and spun this out for almost 2 hours > whilst they chatted with friends. The children > were left to wander about the tables. some > running, some crying/screaming. Other people were > being put off by the numbers and noise of mums and > kids. The cafe was being used as a meeting place > by a dozen or so mums. The cafe owners did not > want to impose a minimum charge as felt this would > discourage those who just wanted a quick drink and > be in and out in half an hour or so. Wheras some > of the mothers may purchase a cake or sandwich to > eat, others would bring out packed lunches for the > children and sometimes themselves! When approached > by staff who point out the notices which state > only food purchased on the premises could be > consummed, one mum had retorted that she could not > afford to eat there as too expensive and had only > come in so that she could see her friends!. > Whereas having gone through 3 children and 6 > grandchildren - I know the difficulty in finding a > child friendly cafe/restaurant, but I can also see > the cafe owner's point of view that free meeting > space to meet friends is not viable if you just > have a ?2.50 drink - where could you hire a > meeting venue for ?2.50 an hour? Cafe trade not going down hill in Brockley or Forest Hill, that I can see. Lots of nice new places opened in the last two years, with different places caterting for different customer bases by providing things that make them attractive to that base, not by repelling those who don't fit the groove. Would love to see The Gardens respond to this thread as Canvass & Cream did to a similar thread!

woodrot Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Saffron Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Have you tried spraying Feliway around the cat > > door? Feliway is sythetic cat pheromone, which > > can help cats feel soothed in stressful > > situations. It migth encourage your cat to be > > more confident with exploring the door. xx > > bloddy hell Indeed. Shall I come spray some around your door? I bought mine from the vet, but it's also available online. xx

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don't like the knocking on stranger's doors bit. > Yes you can argue that they will always be > strangers if you never knock, but you don't know > who is behind each door. You don't know if it's an > elderly person for whom getting to the door to > open it is a bit of an effort. > You knock before Halloween, of course. That's how you get to know your neighbours. You can also try waving to them in the street, making small talk over the gate, or taking them in for a cuppa when they're locked out as has happened to 2 of our neighbours in the last year. In context, the point is, we know our neighbours because we make an effort to get to know them. That's what community is about. If you never make an effort you will never know them. And if you do know your neighbours, then Halloween is a time when we can especially enjoy the community spirit of those neighbours who we know enjoy this event. Don't knock doors you don't know. If you only knock on, for example, two doors this Halloween, then maybe you should try a little harder over the next 364 days of the year to get to know your neighbours. > > >You could say they should put a sign up. Why the hell should they have to!? > > Well, an easy community minded solution to this would be to find out who your elderly, disabled, or disinclined neighbours are. Then you could ask them if they need any assistance on Halloween. You could --shocker!-- ask them over to your own house for the evening. Even if neither of you then participate in Halloween, you'll both have an opportunity for some neighbourly good will. With a little thought and positivity, this is an event that everyone can enjoy, and it need not cause distress.

Have you tried spraying Feliway around the cat door? Feliway is sythetic cat pheromone, which can help cats feel soothed in stressful situations. It migth encourage your cat to be more confident with exploring the door. xx

I'm not really interested in people's credentials on online forums, because anyone can put anything online. So, to some extent, it's meaningless from that point of view. Forums can be great sources for sharing experiences from individuals who are not specialists, and also for exchanging opinions from people who are more specilised or have more specialised knowledge. But, ultimately it's down to readers to interpret what they read and decide its usefulness for their own situations. Personally I think it's great when people provide links to other articles and data sources, as it helps put their opinions in perspective. Actually, considering the amount of rubbish advice I've had from medical professionals, it's a breath of fresh air to get some insightful advice from people who aren't! (Well, they might be, but they're keeping schtum.) xx

That sounds like a good plan. Good luck. Definitely not worrying over nothing!! Prolonged vomitting in infants and children should always be seen by a specialist. xx

The Nappy Lady Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I know The Gardens hosts business networking > meetings so it sounds like he's trying to > encourage that sort of client more. I do recall > years ago a cafe owner (acquaintance) saying that > whilst he welcomes Mums & buggies they would often > take up many seats for a couple of hours whilst > only ordering a coffee & cake - not good for > business...I'd never really considered that before > & it did make me a bit more self aware when I was > lurking around the area on maternity leave! So, they could just be asked to move the buggies, nicely, if that's the case. Although I've seen plenty of people with laptop computers and newspapers taking up seats with just a coffee... It's more about timing, as I see it, and whether the place is otherwise busy or not. Because if the place is empty otherwise, then having mothers with small babies, taking up tables with just cake and coffee is still better than having no one in there at all. And I really cannot believe that people want their buggies to annoy others and get in the way. It's just not always as easy as saying you can leave a buggy at home. Thay may be the case for a lot of people, but it's not the case for everyone. > > I think my main issue is that the owner could > easily put a sign up explaining their policy - eg > "Sorry, no buggys" etc and then everyone would > know where they stand & these upsetting > experiences would cease. Yes, a sign would be great. They wouldn't even have to totally disallow prams. Eg, "2 buggies only during busy times", or "please fold all buggies when seated". > > As others have said its the owners decision but > what a shame he's handling it so badly. Yes, very badly handled. It's very confusing because The Gardens was initially very baby/child friendly. Why the change? I do think there are ways to accomodate different customer types in the same space. The Brockley Mess (SE4) seems to be doing a better job of managing mixed customers, in less space, with better service -- they're always busy! It can be done!!

When the stomach is inflammed from a virus (and now from mechanical stress too), it can delay gastric emptying. Delayed gatric emptying in itself can then further irritate the stomach. If lunch is remaining in the stomach, followed by dinner refusal then vomitting in the evening, it may just be that the time lapse is what's required to generate sufficient irritation to the stomach to produce vomitting of the food which has remained in the stomach during the afternoon. It may have started as a virus, but it definitely needs urgent speciliast attention, IMHO. I wouldn't hesitate to go to A&E. Let them see how bad the vomitting is. A specialist needs either to treat or to rule out eg acute inflammation of the stomach/stomach lining, or assess for other parenteral issues. Would they consider giving your LO an IV glucose drip for 24 h, with no solids, to see if the vomitting reflex occurs even on an empty stomach? Personally, I would be starting to worry a lot about dehydration too. Really, really, don't hesitate to be seen again by a GP or A&E, or both. It's awful when LOs are sick like this. I hope you and your LO get some relief soon. xx

But come to think of it, maybe I will take my most annoying buggy from my vast shed of hundreds of buggies (similar to woodrot's shed of cats, though prams obviously aren't carnivorous) from now on just to give cafe owners a hard time. Muhahahahaa.

Irony: The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect. ;-) Of course people don't chose a buggy that will annoy others! You take the thing you can best get along in, so the idea that people need to "think" about their prams is a bit silly. I would have found that comment by the owner very patronising if it had been said to me. Erm, what the Hell are we supposed to "think" about our prams?