zeban

Well I'm annoyed because I wanted to edit my post due to it sounding a bit inflammatory without asking the details. Were there many people watching Atticus? Did you ask why the sound was down? I do definitely think if pubs are advertising that they're showing the footie, then it does seem absurd that they wouldn't have the sound up. No one wants to watch footie with the sound down!

I'm sorry but the 'George Amani' and 'Bennaton' does it for me because you seem to be making a point that you're somehow better than others because you choose labels over tracksuits..but you can't even get the labels' spellings right! (that deserved an exclamation point). If your argument was about quality or style choices then you could have chosen to highlight these rather than the labels you buy into. To me this says far more to me about you than anyone who wears a tracksuit. The above posters summed it up in their quotes from The Devil Wears Prada- there is no industry more commercial than the fashion industry and although I like clothes, being a slave to fashion trends and brands just make me think of sheep buying into a massive marketing spin. But then of course, that's what the industry wants! Enjoy your Timberland boots!

Hehehe, I'm glad I wasn't the only one that noticed Captain Scarlett's interesting choice of labels.. Btw Captain Scarlett, I used to work in the buying office of Armani and you might as well be buying George Armani given that they make all their clothes in China, with the odd stitch done in Italy so they can sell you a suit for a ?1000. More fool you I say. I couldn't give a stuff what other people wear, it's up to the individual to find things that they feel comfortable and good in. I've seen many a non fatty wearing tracksuits.

:))

Would love to meet you!

As in the background I've come from, my own personal experience. It's only been IV and myself who have layed these out on the line as a kind of counter argument to some simplistic responses to this debate. It is a complicated issue after all. Look Huguenot, I'm sorry if I misread you, I honestly didn't think I did. It's true that 'you cannot be sure that a child is an investment with a post dated return on taxable income' but they also might well do that. There's also other ways you can contribute towards society than just paying your taxes.

A statement of facts in a loaded context.

By all means :))

I apologise, I see that it was indeed a statement of facts. Now you're boring me with your rude responses Hugeego.

Hugo, Hugo, Hugo... I'm sorry if what I write makes you think I'm making things up or have some weird goings on in my head. I do get passionate about subjects such as these because my view is one of an insider, unlike yourself. It's so easy to generalise in debates like these. And to be fair, you come across as a very miserable resentful old man so I just respond accordingly. Of course I don't wish anything happens to you, I'm not interested in teaching people lessons at all. I was refering to this point you made in regards to IV's post: 'You've clearly got great kids, but other people will have kids who are a net drain on society. Besides most of their tax investment will go on providing services for themselvelves.' I'm also in favour of reforming child benefits, to see that those who need it get it.

My guess is Huguenot, your 'big plan' didn't quite work out the way you expected. Perhaps it all turned out to be a big disappointment. That would definitely explain your resentment. People do things differently. You can do things differently. It takes guts to swallow your pride and ego.

Huguenot it's not a dream actually, some of us can see beyond the whole 'I have a plan and it's going to work out that way.' I'm not tormented by not having a father thank you very much, the extra support would have been nice but quite frankly my mother's taught me so much that makes me proud of who I am today, independent, yes independent not a dependent, strong, empathetic, caring, everything that I'd like to instill in my children some day. I'd say you're the one living in a dream world. People talk from real personal experiences and all you can do is say yes well you're the exception but 'some people..' blah blah blah. How do you know IV is an exception, or I'm an exception? How do you know some people do this or some people do that? Because you read it in the Daily Mail? Why don't you get out there I mean really get out there. And until you can provide me with names and experiences of people then I think it's pointless you having such a ridiculously stereotyped opinion of people. Another dreamworld scenario: put fathers in prison who don't pay child maintenance, you do realise there would never be enough space right? God forbid something happens to you Huguenot because I honestly don't think you'ld have the strength, from what I've heard from you so far, to come through it.

IV you sound like an amzing person and parent. My mum also found herself in a similar situation and there are 5 of us kids. I have to say the only thing I feel I missed out on as a child was a decent father figure- funny how the people with most extreme views on this subject are men! Perhaps if you put your energy into teaching boys how to be men these things might not always happen. Alas Hugenut, sorry Huguenot, I'm not sure you're grown up enough to do a good job of that anyway. No one knows what the future can bring. Life hardly ever works out as one big plan, but that's often the beauty of it.

Clever! Any decent Normans though?

Well If I were a man I don't think a name like Norma would turn me on. If a man, definitely a pass from me.

Lol, I saw it too, someone calling themselves Norma! I posted a message saying it sounded rather dodgey and would she elaborate please, only to find the post had been taken down!

Firstly I absolutely agree with DJKQ, 'For many women there is a real biological urge to have children. It's hormonal to the point the it becomes their sole aim - why else do couples spend thousands on IVF etc? It isn;t a take it or leave it option. It is a part of life and a genetic design of us as a species. I personally, like PR, have never had that urge...but I know plenty of women that have. Little girls don't grow up thinking life is about getting a good enough job to be allowed to have children. They grow up hoping to marry and start a family (I'm generalising I know). The point is that procreation is as imprtant to humans as eating. It's a necessary part of life. And whilst we live in such an unfair and messed up civilisation to which most of us are enslaved I think the right to follow our hormonal instincts is one that most women would like to keep.' For some, having children isn't just a tick box- like get a career, check, get a husband, check, buy a house, check, have children, check. I would argue that for those that treat having children like this maybe they're the ones who are less able to cope with the emotional aspects of parenthood. Money also doesn't always equal to good parenting and respectful children. In fact, I've often found it to be the opposite, with a me,me,me kind of attitude instilled in the children, and a taken for granted view of their parents. And it isn't just poorer parents that spend money on luxuries like junk food, which is what one of the posters suggested. Given the spending power of wealthier parents, it isn't as easy to say no to these things- child obesity runs across the whole spectrum, so to suggest parents without wealth are somehow less well informed, less educated about parenting is patronising, and simply not true. I also agree with DJKQ's above post, and think *Bob* is spot on to argue that: 'To a certain extent children are as expensive as you choose to make them - and 'having more' or not is about weighing-up your priorities - honestly - and being happy about what you decide to do. Many people would easily be able to 'afford' more if they decided to forgo the luxuries of that swish newer car, brand-new baby paraphernalia, giant television with permanent Sky subscription, private education, holidays, one magically themed bedroom per child, piano and flute lessons - or swallowed their pride and moving somewhere cheaper with more space.'

Mellors, you've missed the point.

Ditto Huguenot, my bath is pretty big. A coffee isn't a pound, and it definitely isn't in East Dulwich! add on a cake and a hot chocolate and you're looking at a tenner. More kids, add more money. A tenner has to stretch a long way for some, making going out for a coffee a luxury for some. Deny it all you like but this is absolutely the case for many parents. They probably just don't speak up because they don't want the judgement of 'you shouldn't have children if you can't afford them.' Circumstances change all the time so don't take anything for granted.

Yes, the OP wasn't being very articulate but to me it just seemed he was ranting off because he was frustrated/annoyed. Most people are pretty extreme with their words when they're feeling really pissed off. I decided to take it upon myself to read between the lines of what he was really saying as I very much doubt that as a parent himself he would be anti-children. No one let me do the talking, I wanted to address something that has been bothering me also. The OP was rightly pointing out that not everyone's reality is the same, and to me it's the attitude/assumption that it is which I get from some parents in ED that annoys me. Those that use places as though they were creches and accuse those who don't like it as being anti children. I've been told by other posters that we live in a modern society and that in other parts of Europe children are always in restaurants/pubs all the time, so what's the problem. Has it occurred to those parents that in other Western European countries there simply isn't the disparity between rich and poor that we have here. Honestly, I think some people believe this is an urban myth but it isn't- and you only needed to follow the Evening Standard's dispossessed campaign to understand just how bad the situation is. Some people really can't afford a pub lunch or a hot chocolate and cake for themselves and their children, especially if they have more than one child. People are simply more equal in other parts of Europe, eating out in pubs/restaurants isn't a priviledge for the few. It's a fact that social mobility is the lowest here than in any other country in the first world. This isn't about envying wealthier people, it's about the fact that you probably feel like a failure of a parent already without other parents rubbing it in your faces in places where some people actually go to try to get away from the guilt that they already feel, and try to relieve their stresses so they can go home and be a better, less stressed parent. Obviously I don't know the OP's situation but who could blame him for feeling a little resentful if this is the case for him. Everyone has their own stresses absolutely, but I know from my mum's experience that financial pressure is really really stressful, and I don't mean finding the money for mortgages or holidays, I mean finding money for the basic ammenities. My mum foregoed going out for coffee most of the time, but she occasionally took breaks away from us when she could (and I'm grateful for her own sake as well as mine!). Banning children to me is ridiculous because again that's saying we all share the same reality when we don't. But maybe a recognition that other people use these same places for different reasons as you, that peoples' realities ARE different, and that some people don't believe that every place is or should be appropriate for children- obviously this last one is a matter of opinion though but it's a valid opinion nonetheless. When I was younger I openly admit I felt jealous of the kids I would see in the restaurants, I would feel resentful that I had to eat sandwiches that my mum made for us whenever we went somewhere. But then I grew up and realised that none of these things mattered, that I had the whole of my adult life to eat out/spend time in places surrounded by adults, and the only person I feel for is my mum who was made to feel somewhat inadequate because of this.

I didn't want/intend this post to be put in the context of those other posts at all. I'm sure you are a very considerate person Moo, but do bare in mind that not all are and it doesn't help when people are so defensive and think that anyone who speaks out is childless and doesn't understand anything about being a parent. The OP is actually a parent himself which he makes very clear, and it was the inconsiderate parents who he and I are commenting about- those who use places as creches, staying long after their children have started to play up, and having the attitude that it's everyone elses' problem if it bothers them. And that's not an urban myth for single people to make up because they don't want to see children in pubs! Maybe it's my fault for kind of hijacking the OP's post but I just can't stand it when people shout others down without really understanding what a person is saying. I understand parenting is bloody stressful, that parents need to get out and about, they need support, not to feel isolated or their children vilified. But it does seem that the parents in ED have a very valuable asset-something that many parents would love to have- a huge community of other parents. Given the support and help you can get from eachother it would baffle me that anyone would need or want to use a pub/cafe as a creche. I'm sure people will tell me I'm being patronising now. This isn't my intention in the least however, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

Not really Moos, because you didn't approach this post as being anti children in public places, until your last post. It was aimed at those accusing me of having the attitude that children should be seen but not heard. Because that's not at all what it's about. It's not actually about children at all, it's about parents, choices, and attitudes when socialising with their children. I'd never complain about children in supermarkets, although I know some people have on here but I'm not one of them. Don't taint all with the same brush. There's a massive difference between the day to day things and socialising. I very much doubt anyone goes to the supermarket for some downtime/to socialise/or for a certain ambience.

Please don't hijack this post into something it clearly was never about.

You're obviously not reading my posts properly. I'm saying OF COURSE parents need to get out or they'ld go mad. I'm fully aware of that. Which is why my friends/my mum/my mums friends WITH children all put away time to do this without their children in tow. You go mad with your children always in tow or maybe that's what's so hard to admit- that sometimes you need a break away from your children. My mum was a full time mother but she chose to take us to places that would be fun for us as youngsters- playgrounds, museums, parks, etc or play with us at home. She'ld wait to have her coffee when she got a sitter- no matter how desperate she might have been sometimes to have a coffee- sometimes being a parent is inconvenient to our own needs but we deal with those things because in the scheme of things it doesn't matter. And she was a single parent so was even more stressed and desperate for coffee! People choose to parent in different ways so don't you dare make this is about being childless. You talk about cliches but that's about the biggest cliche you could use. You might as well just say all people who choose not to have children are selfish!!!

Wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. As I said, for me it's nothing to do with children, I don't mind co-existing with kids at pubs, it's just a shame that alot of the parents seem rather obnoxious in their attitudes-thinking everyone including all pubs/restaurants SHOULD cater for their children and if they don't, they kick up a massive noise, and complain on this forum about places only having 1 highchair, or menus that don't cater for children. Maybe I'm being really judgemental and unfair and I apologise if I am because I'm not here to cause controversy or make enemies but that's just what I've observed. I've also lived in Spain but firstly it's a different culture and secondly there's a different kind of attitude from parents. Maybe you should move to Italy or Spain but you'ld probably complain about the lack of child friendly jobs and working hours. I just get the feeling here that taking your children out is more about keeping up with the Jones's than anything else.It's not about being childless or not and I'm not asking pubs to ban children. What I'm saying is I bet if you actually asked the kids where they preferred to be they'ld probably prefer to be at home playing with their parents or their toys or running around outside than being amongst adults drinking their lattes. A real creche where you pay and the kids are amongst other kids is what my friends use when they want to go out. I know I certainly didn't lose out by not being taken to pubs or restaurants and I'm glad my mum would go out and get her downtime without us kids in tow.