WorkingMummy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

What blah blah said.

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What Jenny said. What you said has given me more > hope for this country than anything I have heard > in the past couple of days. Absolutely. I whole heartedly agree with Jenny too.

For the umpteenth time, L, clause 50 does tear up the bloody deals. FfS. We will need a trade deal more than they will. But even IF we were of equal size and weight, we have NO VETO. They DO.

That got a little snuffle of a laugh from me on an otherwise somber day. Ta xx

I agree with that too. Only thing I'd say is, EU is not planning to "punish" us, other than, it will have to allow the natural consequences of our decision to flow. It would be playing right into the hands of existing anti EU propoganda to call this punishment or vengeance. Any more that you are punishing a 5 year old who tantrums out of a party by declining to follow her from the room offering sweets. WM x

Also DF - there are already security and passport checks at our borders even for EU entrants. Because of Schengen opt-out. So that is not something you gained by voting out.

Thank you Loz and CS. Really helpful words. We are going to go for citizenship to try to regain the certainty we had last week.

DulwichFox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I travelled to France... Switzerland.. Italy... > Austria ... Holland... Germany East/West .. > All before the E.E.C. / E.U. existed.. > > There is no indication that myself or anyone else > from the UK will face any restrictions after > leaving. > > There will be a need to show ones Passport and > some security checks but with the current threat > of terrorism across Europe, that's hardly a bad > thing. > > The Paris tragedies were thought to of been > possible due to no travel restrictions between > Belgium and France. > > > > DulwichFox Yes. Europe was never the USSR. Well spotted. You did not have the right to remain and your did not have the right to work. Which mine and so many other local families now depend.

Midivydale -solidarity. I have just started a thread on citizenship. I feel awful even having to ask it of you but would you consider it (please please please don't all leave!) and do you know how hard/easy it is?

Dear Forumites, Right to remain and right to work is obviously a big concern for many families in our area right now. And many people with big emotional and social (not to mention financial) investments in our community do not want to wait 2 years for ??? Boris or someone to sort out what their rights will be at the end of 2018. Does anyone have a reliable rule of thumb guide to applying for citizenship? Chez nous we have a Swedish national who has lived and worked as a member of our family (paying taxes etc etc) for 5.5 years. Her work and importance to our family certainly makes her feel irreplaceable to us. She has (culturally non european) extensive wider family here in London but she is not married and has no children of her own. We also have a Swiss national (so non EU, but bilateral border arrangement) who has lived and worked here for more than 10 years, has British children here, (but is not married and is not cohabiting with a UK citizen or anything like that). The details do not matter too much, but does anyone with expertise have any kind of gauge: easy, guaranteed, hard, not guaranteed? Peoples' lives feel turned upside down and many feel so shunned and insecure. In our household it would be so good to have something solid for us all to look to personally. Slightly ashamed that I do not know the answer to this question. But we never dreamed we would have to answer it when we started our family. WM x

Louisa, staying in the single market and accepting free movement of persons???? Then what the hell is this all about? That is what we already HAD. But we had it WITH a Schengen opt out WITH a fiscal opt-out and WITH a security opt out and WITH a 30% rebate. And now all other EU states have a VETO, not a negotiating position, not a strong hand, not a lever, an absolute VETO on our presence in the EEA and can use that to move us out of all the concessions we fought for over 30 years. You, Louisa, you and 17 million others just gave Romania - to name but one - the same right to VETO our joining (unless we accept Schengen, pay fair share, support Euro bail outs) that we used against the other EU states to ensure our already very special, unique member status. How do you think we got all those concessions for all these years? By using our frogging veto. Which you just GAVE AWAY. I have no words for the imbecility of this rudderless, goal-less, prejudice based movement that yelled for control and now shouts for the status bloody quo!!!!! All this pain, and anguish and division. Is for NOTHING that is good.

Oh for fussake. He is not a horrid man disrespecting the 48%. What are saying? That UK should be treated as ambivalent and another referendum held? He has been handed a decision by the UK voters and he is now acting in the interests of HIS constituency which is now everybody else and not us. Stability demands swiftness from the EUs point of view. It is a divorce. That is what Clause 50 exit is. It is not amicable because half of us don't want it and the EU certainly doesn't want it. It was not a close love marriage anyway because we opted out of Schengen, got a massive rebate on our contributions each year and never joined the Euro. Give the guy a break - every word he says is true. And he is doing what has to be done. Stop lecturing people on respecting democracy (which, btw I do! It does not mean I have to change my mind that this decision is idiotic!!) and blaming the EU for doing what it must now do. See, Brexit is so badly conceived, so ill planned, so rudderless, it is perfectly possible to vote for it, shout about it, clap and cheer, (while, you know, people who it affects immediately weep) and then when it all goes wrong blame everyone else either for not being tough enough negotiators or (in the case of the EU) for not donating us good enough terms.

Lovely. All so lovely.

Lovely.

Just so depressed to read that last post alone.

Ummm, so, unsure how to avoid upsetting already jangled nerves today but, er, obviously "everyone" that "controls" us both here and in Brussels is going to be a bit tied up trying to avoid calamity for the continent for the next two years and so may run out of time to form a new home nation from scratch. BUT I have signed the petition too because it does voice my sense of dislocation and it felt cathartic. And because I hope that a progressive SNP, labour, liberal, green, progressive coalition may actually have some chance of making something not too awful out of this god awful mess. And saying, "Scotland, this is not the UK we feel part of either, we'd rather have independence than this," just seems like the only way to express that today. Plus it may empower the mayor in his bid to have some say in how team Clause 50 (f'in hell) is constituted.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > WorkingMummy of course I have empathy for you and > others who have/will suffer as a result of this > decision. It was never going to be easy, and as I > have conceded multiple times on this forum, we > have a tough few years ahead for everyone and we > cannot underestimate the road ahead. I can only > imagine it is devestating for those directly > affected, but it's early days and we cannot be > sure what will happen so do not lose hope. > > The EU may well try and make brexit difficult, it > may have to prevent a growing backlash in other > countries tempted by the jump ship mentality, who > knows? Either way, we have to make this work. > > In terms of some people being cavalier, I think > you perhaps misinterpret the absolute feeling of > isolation and resentment in the poorest regions of > England. Stakeholders in this EU project, many of > whom have qualified for regional donations to > support deprived communities. They have a great > deal of personal attachment to this vote, some are > below the poverty line and have desperately been > waiting for this day to finally have a voice. So > as much as I respect and appreciate your > predicament, don't underestimate or dismiss the > similar position others have been in for some > years now. > > Louisa. No. As I said earlier in this very thread, I appreciate very well that my own sense of dislocation and isolation of course is what many leave voters have been feeling about "their" country for years. And now I feel it too: that is the pain of divorce for you. But I am not currently on a forum holding my jubilation about my "hot meal" up in the face of their grief. Or talking about their accute anguish as price they must pay for my dream. I empathise with their pain but do not expect them to swallow it for my or my family's comfort. In fact I feel awful today because I have no belief that divorce from the EU or exclusion of immigrants or supposed "control" of immigration is going to make them any richer or better served. I believe that they have cut off our nose to spite our face. Midivydale, your point about how many long standing members of our London community could not vote because of the extraordinarily discriminatory exclusion of resident EU citizens is a very powerful one.

A hot meal elsewhere??? Louisa, hold firm to your beliefs of course by all means. But some empathy for people facing huge personal uncertainty and anguish, and for people genuinely grieving the enforced loss of our membership by a very narrow margin, from Leave, would feel so good. The European family is a public and a personal idea which I support on so many levels. Today is a day of enormous sadness and confusion to those of us with multi national, European families. Leave does mean leave, Louisa. Just like divorce means divorce. Read clause 50. We say go. The EU decides the terms of our exit by a majority vote. We have two years to talk terms but any member state can veto any request by us for more time to agree our exit. Any new deal negotiated has to be reached separately. There is no provision for remarriage on within clause 50. All existing EU states get a right of VETO over any request to rejoin the EEA, let alone as to the terms. I can't help but think that those who are so cavalier about our future now must have very little personal at stake in this awful thing we now face.

Thank you LM. That is nice to hear. He is not my partner but he is a much loved father and co-parent. I have to say our neighbours are being great.

midivydale Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Heartbreaking day. I can not help but feel that > the country that I lived, loved worked and paid > taxes in for 20 years do not want me or the likes > of me here. The Britain I have always loved, > clearly is no longer. I have no idea what this > means for our family.I am distraught. I empathise. I do not know what to say. Other than most of your immediate neighbours do not feel what the slim majority of the U.k overall apparently feels. A lovely EDer (and immigrant) was consoling me as we walked our dogs this morning as I cried for the future of my dual nationality children and their single nationality immigrant father. And we are very worried about his job relocating to Brussels or Frankfut - it is hard to see how it won't.

They won't be eating their words. They cannot possibly afford to give a generous article 50 divorce settlement to the UK with Le Pen and other fragmentalist nationalists lining up. The cards are all the EU's now. The only control we have is over when we say "now" on article 50. Following that, the cards and the timetable are all theirs. And article 50 doesn't even begin to address the notional trade deals leave promised (which ALL remaining EU states would need to say yes to for us to get). In other words, after the divorce, we ask for a new relationship. And we just gave Romaniana, Greece, Italy, each and every EU state, a complete VETO on whether we even get a new deal, let alone it's terms.

Yes. It is not just London v everyone else and we must hold onto that.

But read any unbiased record of Gove's positions over the years, on the NHS, education, foreign policy, Imperialism. I am pretty sure we do know where his moral compass lies. And it somewhere much more ugly than Boris's. Not that i want to choose between to two. Good god this feels like an alternative universe i am very much wishing was not real.

And by frightening political ideology I mean: [sourced from Wiki.] On the NHS: "Gove is one of several Conservative MPs who co-authored 'Direct Democracy: An Agenda for a New Model Party' (2005). The book says the NHS "fails to meet public expectations" and calls for it to be dismantled and replaced with personal health accounts." On Foreign Policy: "The Financial Times describes Gove as having "strong neoconservative convictions". He proposed that the invasion of Iraq would bring peace and democracy both to Iraq and the wider Middle East. In December 2008, he wrote that declarations of either victory or defeat in Iraq in 2003 were premature, and that the liberation of Iraq was a foreign policy success. In 'Michael Gove: Triumph of freedom over evil, he wrote, "The liberation of Iraq has actually been that rarest of things ? a proper British foreign policy success." .... Tariq Ali once recalled how, at the time of the Iraq War, he "debat[ed] the ghastly Gove on television [... and found him] worse than most Bush apologists in the United States." "While deeply critical of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, Gove believes that "there have also been more benign empires, and in that I would include, almost pre-eminently, the British..."" Views on WW1: "In a controversial article about the First World War centenary in January 2014,[123] Gove attacked academic and television interpretations of World War I as "left-wing versions of the past designed to belittle Britain and its leaders."" Oh, and he proposed a new Royal Yacht - during austerity - in 2012. The list goes on and on. In short, his lack of charm is the least of our worries.