edborders

Today 7:30 EMERGENCY MEETING TO SAVE TREES AND HERITAGE in Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries. Council workers on site AS YOU READ THIS, about to remove undergrowth and cut down trees to mound over 48,000 pauper's graves. It is your history and and your beauty that will be lost. Join us. THE HERNE TAVERN Forest Hill Road 7:30PM Tuesday 26 January 2016 Lewis Schaffer New Yorker, Nunheader, 07886504221 Call me.

Southwark Council "@SouthwarkWoods The preparatory works falls outside the remit of the Diocese of Southwark ow.ly/XuTjG" Southwark Diocese today "the Consistory Court has not granted permission for any works to take place, as due process with respect to those who have objected must first be undertaken." Lewis Schaffer I am against cutting down trees and digging up graves for more grave space.

Southwark Council has told us through twitter they don't need permission from the church to do "groundworks" in the cemetery - groundworks mean cutting down trees and putting in roads etc. So works are going ahead. This is the first we heard of this. The church hasn't told us that. And neither has the Council up until now. We have called the Church to for confirmation. It might be true. I might not be true. People lie to you then laugh at you cause you believed them. Lewis Schaffer Cutting down trees for graves in 2016? Are you kidding?

The Council has started destruction on "Area Z" of Camberwell Old Cemetery Wood starting TODAY. The 20th Anniversary of the end of the Newbury ByPass battle. Not sure if any major bypasses were built after the people "lost" the battle to save those woods in Berkshire. From what we can tell, the Council says it doesn't need Church permission to cut down the trees, dump the dirt over poor people's grave, drive over the bodies of dead children and remove their headstones, https://twitter.com/SouthwarkWoods/status/691258379617071104/photo/1 This morning, this child's headstone has been removed. Lewis Schaffer Always surprised at immoral how Southwark Council is.

Save Southwark Woods wants trees AND the graves to be saved, so that Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries will be like Nunhead, Highgate or Tower Hamlets cemeteries. These would be the first cemeteries allowed to return to nature. The council wants to cut down the woods that are there, dig up or cover over every grave and throw away every monument. [Aerial video of Camberwell Old Cemetery Woods - to be lost. https://youtu.be/b76wj7BO8yI ] If you are buried in there now you will be dug up after 75 years. And your body will be in a cemetery that every year gets uglier as trees are cut down and old graves are excavated. Lewis Schaffer Save Southwark Woods

Camberwell cemeteries are much closer for local people. Burial in a Camberwell cemetery will have a price for local people, too. The graves of other local people will be dug up to provide you with your plot. Or other local people will be covered over with dirt. Those other local people's bones will most likely be reburied under your body. If the ground is mounded over, you will definitely be buried on top of other local peoples' bones. [ Video of ITV New report, if you haven't seen it. https://youtu.be/0eklxkk30bQ ] The headstone of the other local person will be removed. Where it will be placed, I don't know. Your new headstone will be removed when your lease is up, too. Your grave will not be forever but for 25, 50, or 75 years. Your bones will be dug up and put under someone else's body or put in a communal grave. But not only that. So you can be buried locally you will be responsible for cutting down trees. Your choice. Lewis Schaffer My mother is buried 3,459 miles from me.

WORK TO POSSIBLY START NEXT WEEK. Local people may want to be buried in their local cemetery but in order to do this the Southwark Council (ie Southwark Labour) will dig up OR mound over the remains of other local residents. The local people who are then buried there will have 75 years to RIP before THEY are dug up or mounded over. Every grave is to be eventually dug up OR mounded over. Watch the Labour Councillor in charge of burials Darren Merrill on ITV News: https://youtu.be/0eklxkk30bQ The council is also going to cut down trees on One Tree Hill just to get a few months of burial space. One Tree Hill doesn't stop at the nature reserve boundary, no matter what Sandy Pepperall of Friends of One Tree Hill says. She says the group will be happy if the Council tosses the logs over the fence. Over in the Old Cemetery, the first two acres of trees are to be cut down and 48,000 paupers' graves will be mounded over with a metre (or two) of dirt. New burial plots will then be sold off. Who knows if local people will care about this. I don't have my loved ones buried there. I have no one who was sold a plot in perpetuity but will now be exhumed and reburied in a communal grave or below the new grave, with their headstone thrown away. dbboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Really, so they are going to exhume the deceased's > remains, can you post the document that states > that. Because if the council started to do > anything like that, and as I am sorry to repeat, > the residents in the borough would be in revolt Scaremongering? No, facts. Lewis Schaffer Nunheader, cemetery woods and heritage lover, one parent buried, one parent cremated.

Every grave in Camberwell Old and Camberwell New Cemeteries will eventually be dug up under Southwark Council plans. And the remains of local people moved. Every grave older than 75 years old. And over time that means every grave. An exception might be made if the families are found in time and are willing to pay keep their loved ones in the ground. We don't know. Southwark Council will be cutting down trees on One Tree Hill and in Camberwell Old Cemeter. Up to 12 acres. What would you tell relatives when they go into the cemetery and find another person's headstone where they expected to find their loved one and their loved ones' remains moved out? The headstones and beautiful monuments will be removed - who knows where they will go. Then the plots will be sold off - or rented off - to people out of the borough. Boss Peter John said on BBC Radio he wants to provide burial for London. Sold off to people who probably they don't that the dead will have only 75 years. Video of ITV News report. https://youtu.be/0eklxkk30bQ Lewis Schaffer Local resident

We are against Southwark Council's plan to dig up or mound over graves and remove memorials in the cemeteries. Every grave over 75 years will eventually be dug up. [ Here is another video of graves that are at risk from destroyed. Camberwell Old Cemetery, East Dulwich in the Autumn. ] Will the families of people whose graves will be dug up get compensation for their loved ones being evicted from their 'final resting place'? When the council evicts homeowners from estates they have to recompense the homeowners. Will the Council ask the families to pay to keep their loved ones in the ground? Save Southwark Woods is against grave stripping, re-use, reclamation, grave excavation, grave exhumation, grave robbing or whatever you call it. Save Southwark Woods campaign does not have an view on burial. We are fighting to keep and increase the wild nature of the cemetery. For Loz: There is a new cemetery in Kemnal Park that was set up because inner London cemeteries are full. The same reason Camberwell cemeteries were set up in the 1850s. Lewis Schaffer One parent cremated, one parent buried.

There was no way to have NOT antagonised the Council. We have put bricks on the road for Southwark Council (and one political party in particular). It was easy for them to cut down a row of hawthorns, destroy a lovely meadow and mound over graves on the Woodvale side of Camberwell Old Cemetery in 2012. So easy. This next bit has gotten a whole lot harder for them. They don't like residents telling them they cannot do something. Save Southwark Woods is part of a much bigger conversation about changing the whole thinking around cemeteries, woods, graves and green space, climate change and health and history and beauty. And new ideas (not so new to some) are going to antagonise people. Within a month, most likely, trees on One Tree Hill are going to cut down and the hill scarred for a long time. Two acres of woods cut down and 48,000 graves mounded over and leased off in Camberwell Old [corrected] Cemetery - as ugly as the Woodvale side. And plans are in place for every grave in both cemeteries to be dug up and leased off. If this kind of talk antagonises you and makes you made at Lewis Schaffer, then you should have to look at yourself. Here is a lovely video of Camberwell Old Cemetery. Sue: > > Well unfortunately, that's what happens when you > take the sort of attitude and use the kinds of > methods displayed on your posts on this forum. > > It's never a great idea to antagonise the people > who will be making the decisions. Lewis Schaffer Save Southwark Woods Campaign, Nunheader, Divorcee, Peckham Rye Ward that is who I am, who are you?

Thank you, Sue, for reminding us that we could call them. The council hasn't been returning our emails for so long we stopped calling anyone there. The Council, including our own councillors Vicki Mills and Gavin Edwards, have been at war with us, their own residents. Just now we called the officer in charge who told us that the plans didn't need to go in front of the planning committee, that he was approving the plans that he applied for. And that it was a done deal. We believe the Church has to agree but once they do, trees will be cut down on One Tree Hill and woods cut down and graves mounded over in Camberwell Old Cemetery. Otta - We want the abandoned graves to be left to go back to nature, like the beautiful bits of Nunhead Cemetery. We can see wildflower meadows and trees growing tall among the graves. If the graves are dug up by the council and new headstones put up, not only will the heritage be lost but the area won't be allowed to return to nature for another 75 years. Otta Wrote:> > You mean let them go to ruin. Because no one > living actually has any connection to those > graves. That's right isn't it? Lewis Schaffer Migrant, Nunhead resident and plonker

NEWS: Southwark Council filed new planning applications on Christmas Eve, December 24th for works in the cemeterires - Cutting down trees on One Tree Hill and for cutting 2 acres of woods in Camberwell Old and mounding over 48,000 graves. We just found out about it yesterday. No notice on cemetery gates, "stakeholders" not notified, no notice in Southwark News. The consultation period was to February 1 now it appears that the consultation period has expired. We are figuring out what is going on. If anyone knows something, please post it or email me. >> And to answer Kiera's concern as to which is more "disrespectful": The Council's plan is to dig up the grave and throw away the headstone and other memorials. Our plan is to leave untended graves and headstones alone and to let the area return to the beauty of nature. kiera Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It isn't something anyone wants, I shouldn't > think, but it's a compromise and doesn't seem to > me to be any more disrespectful to the monuments > of the long dead than your vision of leaving the > cemeteries unmanaged and letting trees root all > over the graves.

Sorry. We missed this entirely. Southwark Council filed on Christmas Eve December 24, 2016 applications for tree cutting and road works on One Tree Hill and for the other works in Camberwell Old Cemetery. Christmas Eve. Probably 5PM! They didn't tell their stakeholders group. Will find and post more tomorrow. We have been in the New Cemetery since the then and we didnt see a notice. We actually stared at the notice board and asked for a copy of another notice.

Who, exactly, are the people who want to dig up the graves of local people? Kiera, you, that other guy. Who else? Who supports digging up the dead and selling off the plots off when there is new ground available a few miles away? Who else out there will stand up for digging people's Grans out the ground - whose families were promised their Gran would RIP forever? Tell me. And tell me how the council can bring forward plans to dig up graves and sell them off so they don't have to cut down the trees right now. The council needs land within 18 months and reuse will take longer than that. The council should have brought these plans forward when they said they wanted the rec ground. They knew what the demand was. Solution: The council can buy property outside the borough if they want to subsidisze burials. Lewis Schaffer Right-handed, work-avoider, kiera Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > taper Wrote------------------------- > > The woods ARE under threat because Southwark > plans, in a few years' time, to prepare that area > for new lawn grave burials. > Some local residents have been trying to bring > forward the re-use of 75+ year old graves in order > to persuade the council that they will still be > able to accommodate current burial demand - about > 220pa - without needing to use the woods. Save > Southwark Woods is well aware that representatives > of local residents are already working with the > council on this.

This is the truth: June 2012 Southwark's Cemetery Strategy ?prioritises the re-use and reclamation of public and private graves?. That means every grave over 75 years old is on the books to be eventually dug up or covered over, headstone and memorials obliterated. If you have family in the cemeteries they will be dug up. [and to get to those graves, they will be cutting down hundreds of trees]. And Leader Peter John was on the BBC Radio in Jan or Feb saying Southwark would provide burial space for other boroughs - he made it a London issue because, at that time, he had greater career plans. He wants to make the cemeteries London's Graveyards. And it is true that their plan is the LARGEST MASS EXCAVATION in UK HISTORY" - hundreds of thousands of graves dug up or buried over. Can you think of a bigger mass excavation? If you have family buried there, or if you like the woods there, go visit, soon. Lewis Schaffer Non-political, Nunheader, former East Dulwich Resident, American

Save Southwark Woods's scope was TOO narrow. Southwark's plan is a never-ending rotation of grave digging and grave selling. It took us a while to see this. They want to dig up or mound over EVERY grave in BOTH cemeteries. Even graves that were sold in perpetuity. Every poor persons' grave. And every beautfiful monument to be removed and dumped. Every memory covered over to create fresh earth to sell off. This will be Leader Peter John's gift to London: London's Graveyard. Do you have family buried there? Say goodbye to them again. That is their strategy and it is unprecedented. The LARGEST MASS EXCAVATION in UK HISTORY. Save Southwark Woods Campaign needs to have an even greater vision for these marvelous green spaces. And our vision is the same as that for Highgate or the nice bits of Nunhead Cemetery. Only they became wild through neglect, We say: Leave the graves alone and let cemeteries return to nature. And lets make the world a green place. And the area in the Old Cem is more than "under threat" - the council has passed planning permission and waiting for the church to approve. If you only want to save the 12 acres of woods, form a group "Save The Woods of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries" and I will support you as far as that goes. But we are trying to save the world. taper Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Problem with this whole debate is I'm still not > entirely sure whether the wood in Camberwell Old > Cemetery (on the northern and north eastern side) > are genuinely under threat. I think the failure > of the campaign, on top of the hyperbole, is to > spread their goals too wide. Plus resorting to ad > hominem against Southwark's political leadership > has been a big mistake as they are the people that > need to be persuaded to modify or clarify their > plans. > > I like Lewis and his group a lot and admire their > passion and energy. But I think they need now to > re-assess the scope and tone of the campaign and > focus on that which is really worth preserving, > maintaining and improving. And they need to work > with Southwark to come up with a plan that manages > and preserves the woods in COC for the future.

This is Southwark's Short Term Plan: 1. Cut down dozens of trees on One Tree Hill in Camberwell New Cemetery (Honor Oak). Drive a road on top of graves to get to the area. Put in rows of graves (as best they can as it is a 7-1 grade) - 8 months worth of graves - which they will sell on 75 year leases. In 75 years, the Council will dig up the graves and sell off the plots again. Scarring One Tree Hlll forever. Good news is that the nature reserve next door has been promised the logs. 2. In the Old Cemetery (Woodvale): The plan is FIRST to cut down hundreds of what most people would call "trees" in a 2 acre area. They will remove or grind up 10,000s of tons of illegally dumped building waste on the site, truck some of that waste away and layer some of the land with some of the cleaner waste. Then they will add dirt to cover the graves of 10,000s of London's poor dead buried in public graves. Sell off the plots, then bury new bodies within inches of the dead bodies (or most likely, amongst the dead bodies) which they will sell on 75 year leases. Then when leases are up, dig up the bodies and sell off plot again. See similar ugliness to what is done on the Woodvale Road side of cemetery. Oh, I forgot two huge water holding tanks to hold the water that comes off the hills and comes out of the ground which can flood neighboring homes. See Video: 3. When these two areas are finished, the Council will then move o to the neighboring areas where they cut down the trees, but instead of mounding, they will dig up the graves of the people in the private graves, put the bones lower in the grave, or put the bones in a communal grave, sell off that plot for 75 years and in 75 years, dig up that grave and sell it on. Continue until every grave in Camberwell is either dug up or mounded over. Have family there? Please let us know. Lewis Schaffer Nunheader, Save Southwark Woods, Tree and Heritage Love, high blood pressure,treated. Who are you? http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

> > BrandNewGuy Wrote: > > I suggested that your > methods are dreadful and counterproductive. But I don't really feel I have to justify > myself to you. you need to justify yourself to yourself BrandNewGuy. Ask yourself why are you not supporting a just campaign to stop the council from cutting down over 10 acres of beautiful woods, including almost an acre on One Tree Hill? (One Tree Hill for god's sake!!) Why wouldn't you support a campaign that is alerting local people to Southwark's plan to dig up or mound over EVERY GRAVE in both cemeteries? I am sure Southwark hasn't been telling them. Why wouldn't you support a campaign that wants to preserves the graves of the dead in a protective coating of nature. Families can visit their loved ones in beautiful Save Southwark Woods has been a tremendous success. We have held off the chainsaws and diggers for over a year. We have been on the BBC, ITV, and in The Times, Evening Standard. the Southwark News and South London Press and many other media outlets. We now have 10,000 names (and email addresses) supporting our cause. A year ago we had nothing. We have caused untold political distress to our local Councillors Vicki Mills, Darren Merrill, Gavin Edwards, Renata Hamvas who represent Leader Peter John and not their local people. I am sure every Labour Party councillor is sick to death of Peter John's plans. (Except for some who want Peter John to go down in flames and would be happy to have his career buried in the Camberwell Cemeteries.) Harriet Harman and Sadiq Khan are dodging us cause it is a hot potato - but everyone else is with us. Will Labour Councillors reply to this post? Hehehe. Please watch the video on ITV NEWS. See our bumbling Darren Merrill. A boy sent to do a job John Peter John should have done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eklxkk30bQ And even if Southwark comes in ans cuts down trees very soon it will help our cause. Southwark's scars they create on One Tree Hill will be visible from below the bill, and we will be in full view of the BBC, ITV and the rest again. There are 100 acres of woods which need protecting and we have just begun to fight. BrandNewGuy, stop having digs at us and join us in this good cause. Lewis Schaffer, Forest Hill, East Dulwich and Nunhead for 15 years. before that Manhattan. Here is my phone number. Call me and we can talk. 07886504221 http;//www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Well, that is sad. You won't help save the woods and graves - something you value - because you don't like the people who are supporting it or the how those people present the case? You are proud to admit that? Whoa... BrandNewGuy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You see it's comments like this that remove your > credibility. I'm involved in a local 'green' > friends' group and we've deliberately avoided > backing the "Save Southwark Woods" campaign > because of the amount of hysteria, disinformation > and fiction involved. Which is a shame, because I > think there's a strong argument to be made for > opposing Southwark's plans. Lewis Schaffer, Nunheader, comedian (usually), father of two boys in East Dulwich schools. Who are you?

you "against" people should stick to your basic points: You don't give a damn about trees, they aren't even trees, they are scrub you don't think 150 year old graves arn worth saving, they were meant to be dug up or should as they are ugly you don't go into the woods anyway, not tidy they are cemeteries! they were always cemeteries! cemeteries! get it? cemeteries! you don't give a damn about the future (global warming, flooding, rotting dead juices flowing down Forest Hill Road) you liked the way things were in the past before all these these bloody newcomers came in here, embarrassing you by appreciating things about the area that you never noticed. (Not intended for the majority of the people who were raised here who appreciate the natural beauty of East Dulwich area and are disgusted that the Council is digging up thousands of graves and sell off the plots to people out of the Borough. I meet very few people who are against saving the woods and the graves, which is why there is no group supporting the council plans and no one to speak for destroying these places of beauty and memories.) Aerial view of Camberwell Cemetery. I just saw this myself. This added: for NXJen, the money will go to the campaign to stop the council from cutting down over 10 acres of woods in Camberwell Cemeteries, stop the council from digging up graves and selling off the plots, and to promote the cemeteries being preserved and maintained as Cemetery Nature Reserves. Lewis Schaffer Nunhead Tree Lover and Grave Saver Come to the Benefit and meet other members of our group. http://wwww.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Here is a video of the area we are trying to save. Please keep in mind that under the trees and meadows are tens of thousands (if not more) of London's dead. The council will be digging up or mounding over all graves over 75 years old and selling off the plots. If you want "local graves for local people" it will involve digging up other local people's graves and cutting down our children's trees. ITV NEWS report: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eklxkk30bQ MORE STUFF FOR THE INTERESTED: AND Valentine's Comedy Benefit at @Save_Ivy_House for Save @SouthwarkWoods ?10 or ?12 on door: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/save-southwark-woods-comedy-benefit-tickets-20846697032 ?

Sorry but we are not letting this rest. Local people might want to know that the Council will be digging up local people's graves to sell plots to people out of the borough. It is massive sell off. And that is not to mention cutting down over 10 acres of woods and the scarring of One Tree Hill. We have called them out on this and Peter John, OBE (Order of Bulldozers and Excavators in Service to Undertakers) called us "liars" on Friday. 1000s of private graves and untold number of public (pauper's graves) are to be destroyed. dbboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > edborders - After one day of peace and > tranquillity on the threads you have to go and > spoil and shatter it, You could not wait to > restart or hesitate to start banging on about the > same thing again this afternoon. Lewis Schaffer Save Southwark Woods tree and old grave lover

it is a fact in Nunhead and thrughout London Graves of local people are going to be dug up. Section 74 Local London Authorities Act of 2007 74 Power to disturb human remains (1)Where a burial authority has extinguished? (a)a right of burial in a grave space under section 6 (power to extinguish rights of burial in cemetery lands) of the Act of 1969; or (b)a right of interment in respect of a grave under section 9 of the Act of 1976, the burial authority may disturb or authorise the disturbance of human remains interred in the grave for the purpose of increasing the space for interments in the grave. (2)No human remains may be disturbed under this section if they have been interred for a period of less than 75 years. (3)Any human remains disturbed under subsection (1) above must be reintered in the grave. >>>END Additionl Reading. Section 9 of the Greater London (General Powers) Act 1976 file:///C:/Users/Carnegie/Downloads/Re_Use_Technical_Guidance_Document____Final_October_2013.pdf "Technical Guidance on the Re-Use and Reclamation of Graves in London Local Authority Cemeteries" Lewis Schaffer Nunhead Fact Checker, tree and old grave lover

The regular Save Southwark Woods meeting is Tuesday, January 12th, 2016 We are fighting to save the trees, graves and heritge of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries. No to excavation of graves and removal of headstones. Tuesday at 7:30pm The Herne 2 Forest Hill Road, London SE22 0RR http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

"Re-use - its fairly morbid." Just to clarify, Southwark Council is planning on digging up or mound over with dirt every grave over 75 years old in both Camberwell Cemeteries. This is what Darren Merrill, Cabinet member for the Environment and Public Realm said on LBC Radio in December. The "little bit of land" is on One Tree Hill - where dozens of trees, including oaks, will be cut down. DM "Our Plans are we are working to bring a sustainable burial strategy into place so what we need to do is find a little bit of land to bring us over and then what we will have is a saleable strategy to continue. The area they are talking about will get us over an eight month period but then what that will be able to enhance us to be able to do reuse. We will be coming into a reuse strategy so that our cemeteries will be able to provide burial space for our residents. Interviewer: "What does reuse actually mean?" DM "Reuse is where - it's fairly morbid - but as you say we are running out of burial space, it's where we can reuse plots after seventy five, a hundred years, and reuse the plot for somebody else to use in the future. So with the amount of burial plots we have got, we are hoping that we will be able to bring a strategy together that means our future generation can bury..." Interviewer "So in 8 months it will be over a hundred years, and sorry it to put it this way, but you can bury people on top of other plots?" DM "Well it's going to take a little bit longer than that. There is a couple of areas within the cemetery we are looking at to do some burial in, but our long term strategy is around about two thousand and twenty when we will be able to start the reuse strategy." Lewis Schaffer Nunhead, Save Southwark Woods, Fat Robert Deniro looker.