first mate

Penguin, let's not forget safety. You seem to think planning have not been incompetent but looked to the greater good?

LM, Look at the other MS thread and Sidhue's comments on servicing agreements etc.. Whilst it may not be an infraction of planning law per se, I suspect that conditions of the servicing agreement are not being met. So I get what James means, and although his wording may not be completely accurate it is still shoddy behaviour by the retailer. I cannot honestly believe that they have been oblivious to the whole planning saga attached to this site, or that they have only just 'discovered' the service entrance and area is not fit for purpose.

KK, Exactly the sort of thing I wish local councillors would investigate and try to iron out, of much greater service to the community than some of the other things that get attention. I don't want to make wild accusations but it would appear that planning are at the very least incompetent in the extreme.

Again, just so everyone is clear: The servicing area was massively reduced as part of the developer's multiple applications. In short, a whole car park was removed and built on. The retailers said they would want more deliveries extending delivery times, but using the same sized vehicles as Iceland. Somehow the developer managed to persuade Southwark Council that black was white and that the abve could be achieved with no adverse effects to residents. Quite how they managed that is up to the individual to conclude. As many if you know, residents repeatedly protested that the new applications were not workable or, indeed, safe. Please remember that one of the bollards at the service entrance was bent sideways, with large, visible red paint scrape marks. That 'evidence' has now been removed and replaced. However, at an earlier site inspection a planning offcer reported words to the effect that it was not provable that this damage had been caused by an Iceland lorry and so he chose to ignore this as a relevant factor in determining the suitability of the service entrance for even more deliveries in future. The wider community may be delighted with their M&S fodder but residents nearby warned planning that the service entrance was not feasible and were ignored in a way that beggars belief. Why would planning do that???

So how was the threshold from 10 to 11 units changed, by the appeal process or prior to that....confused?

LM, If I have understood, there were conditions of access to the service area, times, frequency, noise levels, which bits of road to use etc.. that were applied to the retailer, in this case M&S. It seems some of those conditions are not being adhered to.

James, I'd have thought the history of this development would have prepared you for yet more shoddy behaviour.

Ed. I am not sure, but cannot remember frequency of delivery spec, only timeframe.

BB! Surprise, surprise. Yesterday a delivery vehicle was parked up on the road and path and unloading. He did not attempt to get into the very reduced service entrance. If this is regular it will have a negative effect.

I'm afraid issues with this development and site affecting local residents are still very much alive. M&S vehicles unable to access service entrance and so parking up on street to unload, being just one. This is the new, very much reduced entrance that anyone with an ounce of common sense would have seen was not big enough for a development of this size, let alone one for a supermarket.

James, This was the site inspection/visit by the Planning Inspectorate to determine the appeal on the fourth floor penthouses going ahead. Apparently the Inspector and developer turned up but S'wark Planning did not.

We'll see.

Jeremy, don't know if you have been inside but this place seems to offer rather more than items for an occasional meal. I would say they are offer enough to occasion a weekly shop for small families. There is also a very large food storage area at the back. I never envisaged something this size. I would be simply amazed if people do not drive here to do weekly shops.

I doubt this is accidental. My guess is this was always the plan and the Developer is banking on the fact that the current local infatuation with M&S will stop planning enforcing policy and interfering with the build. They will then apply for retrospective permission and the very greedy developer wins again. How sad that local warnings about the scale and design of this build were not heeded and are only 'discovered' when it is almost too late. It is alleged that at the appeal for the fourth floor penthouses that S'wark Planning did a no show. James Barber do you know if that is true and if so why?

It's not single factor. You have to look at the impact of this development combined with all the others: the two new schools, the medical centre, the proposed 10 m double yellows everywhere and further proposals to reduce parking spaces on Melbourne. None of these large developments have factored in parking, the assumption has been made that people will walk, train or bus it to all the various venues. The street outside M&S was chaos this morning, as one of their delivery vans tried to access the entrance.

Edh, the total development footprint seems larger than expected and we certainly know it is higher, but that is a subjective view and others, including James Barber, have said that it all seems to fit with the plans submitted and available for scrutiny. Are you suggesting that the valuation records will show otherwise? You seem pretty clued up so could you elaborate please?

Lois, I think you make some good points. I would be interested to know what reason has been given for putting Sydenham Hill back to 30 mph, if true? I would support it though. Like you I am all for the bulk of roads being 20mph but main routes better at 30mph. I have never seen such aggressive driving behaviour on a regular basis since 20 mph was introduced.

EDH, TBH I've no idea. There have been so many applications with bits authorised here and there that I think it would be diffcult to know. It certainly seems large enough to be a proper supermarket and that might fit with the much later request for an alcohol licence. Once I realised that objecting to planning was akin to objecting to the winds that blow I rather gave up trying to keep track. The alliance of developers and supermarkets is all conquering, councils and councillors bow to their might and we residents are as flies to wanton boys.

Looks enormous inside...as big as co-op.

my perception is that fewer people are adhering to 20mph than they did 30mph, leading to a less predictable journey in terms of driver behaviour. National stats are all very well but study of a few key roads may be more revealing. Again, if everyone or even most adhered to 20mph it would be easier but in my experience this is simply not the case. Drivers have quickly learned where the few cameras are and speed up and slow down accordingly. Those who do not want to drive at 20mph can become very aggressive in their efforts to make drivers in front of them speed up or if that does not happen they overtake in a risky way. In my experience this is the reality and I do not feel that the roads are safer. Please note the issue is not speed per se but unpredictable driver behaviour, oh and that includes motorbikes and some cyclists.

Gloves fine, but if people are ignoring it then it is possible the risks increase. We need to see RTA data for particular roads since 20mph introduced and also look at the whole issue of enforcement. If the data proves that accidents have reduced since 20 mph introduced on certain roads then fine, but my perception is that the roads in some places feel more hazardous not less, because many are not adhering to 20mph. Just my perception though.

I find driving more hazardous since 20mph was applied to main roads. I believe this is because it is self enforcing and so while a few people try to maintain it many more ignore it, leading to more erratic and unpredictable behaviour. Those who ignore the limit, other than slowing temporarily for the odd speed camera, are also prone to get angry and frustrated when stuck behind a 20mpher and attempt to overtake at speed or tailgate, lights flashing. Far from being bored I find it unnerving trying to stick to 20. At this speed it seems motorbikes and cyclists are also more likely to take risks in terms of weaving in and out of traffic.

Abe, That's the one. So 8 flats at ?670 with the penthouses on top at, presumably, much more. The developers have pretty much got everything they want and more, will wait to see combined impact of the whole.

James, You may know more about current state of play of flats at M&S site. Have all those offices now become flats...each at arounf ?670? You may also be interested to know that lorries delivering fridges etc.. for M&S have been having great difficulty getting in and out of the site, frequently having to park up adjacent to houses and blocking the footpath. The drivers said the M&S regular delivery vehicles will be even larger? Any comment?

I may be misreading or misunderstanding estate agent info but they seem to be marketing a flat on the first floor at over ?670. This will have access to a communal rooftop garden, inducating other flats to be sold on this level. So have all those offices on the first and second floors, the ones that allowed the last application to go through, now been converted to 'affordable' flats? Or is the information incorrect and what they are refrring to is the Penthouse flats on 4 th floor?