Jenny1

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm > aware that many foreign people here have been made > to feel unwelcome. I'd echo your views on this Alan Medic. I feel a new sense of discomfort when meeting immigrants to the UK now. I'm deeply dispirited by the fact that the xenophobic, little-Englander side of our nation has come to the fore since the referendum result. I'm ashamed of this side of the country. These views are based, of course, on complete ignorance of history and economics. So that makes me furious - as this approach impoverishes us all - both literally and culturally. But I'm also all too aware of how hurtful and disruptive this political change has been to the lives of individuals. That's shameful.

Yes. A fox.

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don't buy into the scaremongering theory that if > Brexit didn't happen there would be huge civil > unrest. Of course there wouldn't! The very suggestion is just part of the ongoing post referendum 'Leave' campaign. But I don't think any kind of remotely favourable 'transition' deal is possible. The MEPs from the remaining 27 wouldn't agree it.

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Parliament has become a > processing centre for Brexit. And a really crap one at that.

So comforting that DD has such an impressive grasp of the situation. Love his reference to 'Czechoslovakia' (last seen January 1st 1993).

Still can't work out how we got to the point where the country is run by people who'd be out of their depth managing a medium-sizd M and S.

I keep disturbing frogs trying to hunker down for hibernation - stressful for all concerned. Just have to be ultra cautious when moving anything I guess.

Just to second what Robert Poste's Child said. Once broken into smallish pieces these would make good crocks for drainage.

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- >That should > hopefully put an end to any ideas that he'll be > the next Tory leader... I wouldn't count on it.

He also offers a useful reminder that we have a smaller welfare system than the rest of the EU. Heaven knows what it'll be reduced to in years to come, when there's less cash to spend on it post Brexit. And of course there's the central irony (which he alludes to) that a Tory government is carrying out a policy that it doesn't really believe in - but which fits perfectly with the long-cherished wishes of the Labour leadership. If Lewis Carroll were alive today he'd chuckle.

I think such briefings and counter-briefings just reinforce the picture that there's no consistent, sustainable approach being adopted. As suggested above, plenty of hard-Brexiters are happy with that. An incoherent strategy is just another route to 'No Deal'.

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > So it's more to do with the amount of it. The > foreign secretary did after all say the EU would > have to whistle for their money. It's interesting > that this news breaks when they're all on holiday. Yes. Isn't this the first time there's been an official acknowledgement of an actual figure? They've been happy to be vague before, which has allowed the 'we won't pay a penny' tone of Boris' 'Go whistle' comments. They must have known that once real figures started to be talked about they'd be in trouble and hence wanted to go to the polls early.

So an upfront cost of at least 36 billion in order to win the right to be poorer. What a good thing many leave voters (61 per cent I think the last poll suggests) now say they don't mind taking an economic hit to leave the EU. So, putting aside the long term ongoing costs they'll be happy to meet, a one off payment will be demanded shortly. 61 per cent of 17.4 million people gives us 10.6 million people willing to foot the bill. By my calculations that means a very reasonable initial payment of 3.3 million. Some may not have the cash to hand but low interest rates and their willingness (as shown in recent polls) that their families should also take an economic hit means some kind of cross-generational loan scheme should ensure that by the time their great great great grandchildren come along they'll only be paying the long term ongoing costs.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > First time I've ever heard of a dog actually doing > a dump in a premises - I thought staff giving that > as a reason for not allowing dogs was a > smokescreen for just not liking dogs. Well I found an offending 'dump' in the changing room there once and had to ask a member of staff to clean it up. So either it was a dog or some poor customer was caught short.

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > At this rate we'll remain, give up any rebate we > used to have and fly the EU flag at Westminster by > 2019. Yes. I'm really concerned that we've already effectively given away our previous position of strength within the EU. This government is incapable of winning that back. The Labour leadership looks no more promising. I'm a Lib Dem supporter at the moment - I'm not sentimental about political parties - but I find them the most convincing right now. But what we really need is a complete shake up of our political system. I think the Tory party is effectively finished whatever happens with Brexit - though it could still remake itself as a new centre-right party. Labour needs to split. But it seems that the political class is currently suffering from collective paralysis. They may just limp on as they are indefinitely.

keano77 Wrote: - > Where's the positivity? A positive outlook is indispensible in life. I quite agree. We'd none of us get anywhere without it. But if taken too far it can mean a blindness to reality. And that's dangerous.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Shame so many remainers seem to enjoy > putting Britain down. I'm a remainer Keano77. I also have, as stated above, a passionate love for my country. I particularly resent it when people like Andrea Leadsom claim that being a remainer means that I don't. I'm sure you wouldn't repeat her mistake. I'm certain there are rafts of competent civil servants in our negotiating team. I have great respect for the civil service. But from my perspective we shouldn't even be having these conversations about a post-EU UK. It's a criminal waste of our collective national resources to be worrying about what happens to 'Hansel' (or even 'Gretel'), and indeed embarking on this whole project in the first place. Because in my view the Brexit philosophy was always based on a fallacy. And, if you'll forgive me, a somewhat neurotic one at that. The EU, with the UK as a powerful voice within it, was never going to become a 'scary super-state', as some leavers claim. I also think this idea of 'taking back control' springs from a misguided, simplistic 'black and white' view of international affairs. It seems to appeal to people who do not understand that the international stage, both political and economic, like all areas of life, has always been about grey areas, balancing acts, compromises and continuous vigilance. You never 'arrive' at some perfect destination. You must always be working towards achieving your goals in a constantly evolving world. To which area of life does that approach not apply? To my mind the 'Leave' philosophy smacks of an inability to accept that reality. Now I really wouldn't mind any of this if it wasn't for the long-lasting impact it will have on our national life. Because the world works in the manner stated above - not according to the ideas laid down in nineteenth century school text books - we will not be sailing off into some kind of glorious, self determined sunset. We will still need to be balancing those forces of international money and power. And the outcome? We will have to make some new and, in my view, unpalatable compromises. This time we won't be a powerful member of the world's largest trading bloc. We'll no longer be part of an international group which promotes the values of the welfare state and public health provision for all. We'll find ourselves instead building that metaphorical 'Atlantic Bridge' which Liam Fox is so fond of. Getting much closer in social and political organisation to the United States. I admire a lot about the USA. But my experience of the ups and downs of life has taught me that I'd never want to live in a country without adequate health and welfare provision, which is what the US is. In essence we are sleep-walking towards the end of the post-war model of social democracy. I don't think any true lover of their country - and the people who live in it - should be taking that course.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But it's a shite shambles, it's hurting our > country, our economy and making us the laughing > stock of the developed world. > I agree. I love this country fiercely. I will never forgive the unprincipled fools who are dragging it into the dirt.

keano77 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's to do with working out our future immigration > policy and is a perfectly sensible idea. I'm afraid I don't share your sunny view of our current leaders' ability to plan ahead keano77 - or to adopt any policy based on it's usefulness, rather than it's short-term, knee-jerk ideological appeal. However - even putting my own interpretation of the political landscape aside. Imagine that you were a government which was really focused (as you suggest) on doing the best thing for farmers, and working out how to efficiently achieve that. Would you put them through at least two years of inadequate labour supply before coming up with a plan? How many businesses will fold in that time do you think? And of course there are all the other areas of our economy and society which have benefited from highly skilled employees from the EU. The NHS not least amongst them. These are people with lives to plan and families to care for. They're not hanging around to see what a Home Office report says in eighteen months time. They're leaving already. That's not a problem for them. It's a problem for us. In any business or organisation, private or public, a failure of transition-planning spells disaster. Anyone who has ever managed anything knows that.

So. In what professional environment would the following be acceptable? As per Brandon Lewis this morning (The Times and Today Programme).....the government is now going to do some research and will have 'the best evidence possible.....on the impact of exiting the EU on the UK economy' by September 2018. It might have been of some use if this work had been commissioned five years ago. Not now. If commercial enterprises adopted such a cavaliaer and tardy approach to 'doing their homework' they would go bankrupt within weeks. If researchers into drugs took this course, fresh thalidomide scandals would be happening every month. If engineers employed this strategy we'd have given up on bridge and tunnel building centuries ago, as it would have proved too costly to human life.

Yes. Excellent news. Well done Chazzle and all who lodged concerns.

Thank you for the link WomblingFree. I was able to access the article. And it draws sensible conclusions I think - the need to widen the talent pool, and value age and experience more highly when selecting MPs. Longer term that would help. But for now we have to resign ourselves to being lumbered with the 'C Team'.

Hi JoeLeg. I quite agree that there will always be 'briefing with an agenda'. One always has to bear that in mind. But in my view events bear out the conclusion that the government isn't handling this matter competently. I watched David Davis' performance before the Parliamentary select committee and found him unprepared. I saw his tweeted statement that the first thing negotiators should do post the referendum result would be to do a separate deal with Germany, compared it with the current reality, and found his views (at best) naieve. I saw his tweets suggesting the withdrawl of the banking and medical regulatory authorities from the UK would be up for discussion, saw the EU take a rapid unilateral decision on this (as was always their right), and reached the same conclusion. I do not find May, Johnson or Fox any more convincing.

Absolutely JoeLeg. That's part of it, to be sure. The central irony being that Corbyn, and other 'Bennite' members of the Labour Party, clearly 'believe' in Brexit in a way that the PM, Foreign Secretary and Chancellor (who are actually implementing the policy) don't. But there are also issues of simple competence too. That's what really struck me about the Irish Independent article above - and indeed many other accounts of what's currently going on in government. The bumbling drift is unforgiveable.

Absolutely DulwichFox. I agree with all of that. But people are complex and often exhibit great strengths along with appalling shortcomings. I disagreed with virtually every domestic policy Thatcher ever carried out, but she was no fool and she wasn't lazy. This current lot are both.