Tony.London Suburbs

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "regardless of points being made could I at least > ask that Tony space out your words from the quoted > text as It's getting very hard to tell them apart" WILL DO!...What do you think of my reply to you timed at 9.55AM Sean?

Peckham native Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I once parked my car for work (Walworth) NOW you are talking.I'm originally from The Walworth Road and had nearly 3 great decades there!..East Lane Market..sigh... > > I honestly don't feel like I live in a dangerous > crime ridden area. There are a few alleys and > paths I would avoid and they are the same ones I > avoided when growing up here in the 60's. I think > you get a very different perception of an area > reading about it in the press than actually living > there. .........Absolutely PN!...I know my view of these areas is much more tolerant and accurate than people that have lived in The Country or 'burbs all their life..Still I'm very careful though..Wanted to visit someone at The Elephant the other night but with the window problem I erred on the side of caution..lol

david_carnell Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Phew, where does one even begin on a thread like > this after the last couple of pages of hyperbole? ..What part was exagerrated David?> > @ Tony - this isn't the 70s. We all look back > fondly on previous decades and admire all the good > we saw without ever failing to ackknowledge > problems that existed then. Parts of London back > then were horrendously grim but have seen swathes > of investment and renewal since. ................EXACTEMUNDO!..I came from the (then) largest Council Estate in Europe.All my friends came from Council accommodation(Not difficult when 97% of Southwark residents did then)..and yet for all its aesthetic "grimness"...for all the 5 Estates that then existed in Peckham then.Modern housing is VASTLY improved the appearance of the area.For all that it was SAFE.I could and did regularly,walk home from Brixton thru' Camberwell at 4.00 AM with never a problem.Crime IS much more prvailant now whether you accept or like it or not Mon Ami:) In the 70s men > could still legally rape their wives.....Of course there have been improvements and some horrendous "wrongs" belatedly rectified!, Irish people > were banned from pubs....there are not still???.....J-O-K-E M8 b4 you get on your high horse:)and the National Front > enjoyed their nadir.......only to be replaced by the BNP...surely "zenith" in this context NOT "nadir2..the complete opposite meaning? I'd rather not return to > those days if that's ok. .....overall I WOULD!!!....Much more courtesy,less traffic and pollution.People with more time and inclination to be part of a Community,instead of lil pockets of Community here and there..Much less chance of witnessing or hearing or being involved(indirectly) in crime...I WOULD...Wheres the Time Machine...actually make it The 1960's..EASILY my favourite decade where London was at the centre of the Universe for Fashion/Photography/Art and Music.:)...some of us WERE "there"...:) > > But to suggest that the answer to crime is to take > part in the "great white flight" is naive. I grew > up in a suburb similar to yours with parents who > had moved from SE London in the late 70s (although > for work rather than social reasons) and can > honestly say it is one of the most soulless, > miserable, insular places I've ever had the > misfortune to live in. And their friends who did > the same across Surrey and Kent are in worse > places. Twee, net-curtain twitching surburbia > where gays are exotic and the asian familes cook > "funny-smelling food". It's ghastly. And I > couldn't wait to leave. ......So you did NOT personally experience London Town in the 1960's...I hope that both your Parents are still alive.If so what did they think and how do they like living where(I hope) they currently do?..They are not metaphorical questions..I would be interested to know. > > I actively chose to come here to live. I'm aware > Peckham and East Dulwich have problems regarding > crime, anti-social behaviour etc etc but I'd > rather stay here and try and do good in my > community than flee. What's the quote about > allowing evil to prosper when good men do nothing? > That's you Tony, you did nothing. You fled to your > insular suburbs and now take great pride in > letting everyone know what a great choice you've > made. I don't care how many > black/Jewish/lesbian/asian friends you have, it > doesn't disguise your thinly veiled abhorance of > anyone not quite like "you/us". .....Complete "eyewash" as a former Dulwich resident used to say....I do NOT approve of a Community(in general where over 70% of children come from Single-Parent Families with ALL its social consequences(Poverty/Refuge in Gangs etc/No Role Models/Father Figures etc...the list is endless as I hope and am sure you know).... > > I don't know if you're trolling or not, whether > you've come from Gumtree or the moon, nor do I > really care, but if you continue to espouse such > worthless, ill-thought-out bollocks on here you'll > get pretty short shrift from all the decent people > who live here and give a damn about their > community. ......"Ill-thought out b++++"...I have written a great deal.You have an enormous choice of material.What part do you feel comes into the "bollix" category me old fruit?

Rico Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm finding agreement with Tony. As I said > elsewhere, and was efficiently and summarily > dismissed as a 'Daily Mail troll', .............."Troll"...that does make me laugh as the whole problem is that "most" people do NOT want to come to terms with this problem.Examine it thoroughfully,draw some conclusions and proceed from there!..Its much easier to take the "lazy" way out and say someone who has the temerity nae AUDACITY to want to debate the point in an open,civilised way is a "Troll"...lmao:) it seems common > sense has dissappeared and any suggestion that > hard left views aren't fully embraced results in > insults of being intolerant and ignorant. Its actually the complete antithesis of "ignorance"..my perceptions and observations are based on first-hand experience in the work-related arena(Thank you David Brent:))...and living and socialising with all groups of people since the 1960's...too young b4 that! >" Can one not, for example, be against ignorance, > racism, sexism and homophobia but still suggest > some common sense on immigration issues and > recognise certain communities have bigger issues > with crime to be tackled? " The Met.Police compiled Stats showing that 174 out of 177 London Gangs have the same Racial Profile for all(or most) of their Gang Members so anyone aware of this can not begin to deny that some sections of our Community(All Londoners) have more of a problem than others...Who has ever heard of a Jewish Gang or Jewish street mugging(one this Century?):) > > "We're not talking BNP or for that matter Lib Dems, > but the centre ground for common sense and the > ability to find solutions somewhere in the middle > that move us forward?" .........One thing I have learned is that the average "Brit" feels VERY uncomfortable about this whole proble.Just look most parts of the liberal Media(easy for them they are extremely unlikely to get caught upin the morass)...theywould rather the problem just go away and not,personally,bother them.My great concern is that the problem MUST escalate if suitable deterrents are not in place or indeed we can not even discuss the true situation...

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Steady Tony, only resident forumite ???? is > allowed to call me that ;-) Jeez Sean how much longer have we got to know each other b4 e become Mates:).I heard you cheeky Cockney chappies were the salt of the earth-Gods own people:) > > Otherwise I'm not sure how to respond to your > posts - something isn't ringing true with your > persona. Your terminology and sudden exclamation > of knowing more black people than all other races > combined... sorry if it sounds personal but I'm > not convinced. .....No! I said that I,personally,know more Black people(over the last 30/35 years) than all my other White friends put together!...Thinking about it I DO probably know more Black Guys than other Groups except Jewish as strangely Jewish Guys have been VERY prominent lmao in the financial World that I have been involved in for many years(but I must NOT "stereotype"..silly me:))..."Sudden exclamation?"..I only joined last night M8! > > So if I google "Black British Forums" (thanks for > providing a link btw - very neighbourly) you are > telling me I will find narrow-minded people. > Unlike any other forum in existence presumably? ....The reason I did not provide a link is that I was not sure it was permissable here.There are Forums where you are not allowed to!...It is "Blacknet.co.uk" NOT,I repeat NOT ".com"...That forum is not supposed to be like Stormfront or other such nonsense it is from everyday Black people..While White people are not actually banned(its illegal)."Other" views are NOT tolerated..It clearly stated that the Forum is heavily biased in favour of Black people.The head of the Forum makes that ABUNDANTLY clear!..They tell you quite openly that "Free Speech" is not a concept that they believe in!(Most contributors are from England!.I'm sure there's a contradiction there somewhere!)...Go and have a look.Read the thread extolling the virtues of Dear Bobby Mugabe,for example, with only a couple of dissidents who have the audacity to suggest that he has been none too pleasant to other Africans > > I'm not sure you have answered my points either, > nor am I sure I can answer yours. You glibly state > that there is very little street crime where the > poorest communities (in your example > Bangladeshi's) but as Tower Hamlets is home to a > large concentration of Bangladeshi's I'm not sure > crime figures would back up your statement. > Looking back historically, long before immigration > to Britain, there have been much more violent > periods in British history. > Some linkage here... Where Sean?> > You sound more like Mary Whitehouse blaming an > external (in her case TV) source, rather than > addressing any underlying problems. > > Another question back at you - what, in your > opinion, should be doen about the problem of > violent crime? ........A 16-YEAR-OLD Girl who is reformed from her criminal past made some valid points the other day...She said the problem is all about "materalism" NOT "poverty" though we know "poverty" is one factor.The Parent(s) turn a blind eye as there is less pressure on them to provide themselves... ....What to do?...Educate people to have children ina stable,TWO-Parent environment to give them the "best possible" chance(Yes I KNOW there are admirable exceptions to the rule and plenty of scum who come from 2=Parent Families...but there is no doubt that coming from a loving stable Family where the Man gives Emotional,practical and financial help to his Partner gives their children every chance and gives them a great advantage in life(No guarantees)... Make sentences much harsher and publicise the fact!!..At worst these people will be of the streets,not harming law-abiding people. Extol the virtues of Studying.Its "cool" NOT to study amongst many British Black kids(thats undeniable)...Look at the comparison with Black children from The African Continent itself.There is a great difference,IN GENERAL. Do more Stop and Search but ensire there is no repetition of the nonsense back in the day. Have more visible Police.. Encourage an all-inclusive Culture that makes ALL people want to be part of our Society. Plenty more when I have more time.

Peckham native Wrote:Tony.London Suburbs Wrote: > > > All(virtually) of my friends come from > > a Working-Class ...."> > Tony I also come from a working class background > as do many of my friends. My family have lived in > south London for many generations. In the 60s some > aunt & uncles moved out to Kent - they could buy a > decent sized house with a good sized garden. They > are still there and relatively happy although do > comment on the increase in crime. My side of the > family have stayed in Peckham. I must say I > wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I want to > live in an area with 'like-minded' people. People > who don't judge you on what colour you are, what > class you are, what job you do. I've got that > here. I have the best neighbours possible. A > Jamaican family who have been in the same house > for over 40 years. They always look out for me and > I get plenty of freebies from their allotment.> > Of course there is crime but I'm glad I live in a > vibrant, diverse neighbourhood where I know my > neighbours and we look after each other as is > evident on this forum. ....That is great to hear that!.That is the way it should be my friend... The problem is the crime though.Living there you are more aware of the truth of the matter and I note the camaraderie on this Forum which is to be applauded:)...(as I wrote a piece a few minutes ago I heard of the 2 French students who appear to have been burned to death in New Cross,a murder enquiry is underway)...Its the scale of the street crime. It is so ridiculous when people defensively say "there was a murder in Salford last week" or "there was a murder in leafy Surrey 4 years ago!"..the truth is that you are much more likely to see or hear about street crime in Peckham or Walworth or Kennington or Camberwell than if you live in The Suburbs.Recently(currently lol) my damn window will not shut in my car..I have parked in various places since then locally with no problems at all.Maybe I will come down and park it around Peckham for a couple of weeks and take my chances.:)...Do you reckon that I will get away with it there M8?:) P.S.Watch over that allotment-there has been an outbreak of allotment theft recently! It was on the front page as the headline story in my local paper:)..Who said the Suburbs were crime-free!..Bleedin' Teefs and Tealeeves:)

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Tony:> You clearly have a problem, specifically with > black people on the surface- but you are too > cowardly to say as much ("I will leave you to > guess titter titter" etc - and yes you were > talking about areas not race but I can read the > subtext) Thank You for your reply Sean. Firstly,I can assure you that I am not "tittering",having been born and bred near Peckham and known what it was like to walk thru' any part of there at any hour on my own thru' the 1970's without a care in the World it saddens me that,not only could I do not do it there,but almost certainly not be able too in 50 other London areas,circa 2008.Hardly anything to "titter" about...."Too cowardly"..try not to be personal old thing:)..I have been civil and polite to you,I would appreciate it if you could reciprocate. > > "You have such a problem that you stereotype other > people - let me take you around the poor (Asian) > community of East Ham.. let me take you around the > poor (White) community of Edinburgh - equal > presence of violence and in many cases > intimidation. Cultural inheritance may play a part > in behaviour but no race or colour is pre-disposed > to violence..."...........On the contrary I treat EVERYONE on their own merits,do NOT pre-judge,realise there is good and bad in every Community,and I'm friendly,sociable and respectful to everyone irrespective of colour,race,creed etc...indeed I will go MUCH further than give you the old line about "some of my best friends etc"...I actually have had more Black friends and acquaintances than ALL my White friends combined..My current housemate is from Jamaica,as was the one before last.The Ladyfriend I saw only yesterday was Black and a Ladyfriend I am taking back to London Town tomorrow is also of Jamaican antecedency,so much for your "lazy" stereotyping of me..LOL...........however that does NOT mean that I am going to put my head in the sand about who was responsible for 157,000 out of 175,000 London Mobile Phone THefts/Assaults spread over all 33 London Boroughs,for example.That does not prevent me readind descriptions of the suspects in virtually every London Teenage Murder since January,2007..I returned to my roots to "celebrate" the 25 years back in May,walked around but was told by 2 very Liberal people who loved the character of the area that I should not return in the evenings,that very evening a 21-year-old Black Guy was chased and murdered by a few Guys. Remember it is BLACK people who are far,far more likely to be victims of these murders themselves. Put all this in the context of the Black London populace being less than 10%. No Community is TOTALLY without crime but I'm not too aware of Asian-On-Asian murders>? surely the problems you mentioned in their Community would have occassionally resulted in this? Glasgee,sorry Glasgow would have been a much better example of what you were trying to say..I have stayed in Glasgow and Edinburgh and I'll take my chance in Edinburgh over The West Coast if you don't mind:) > > Interesting that you say you and your friends > wanted to "improve their lives" and "left London > accordingly". Most people from around the country, > and the world come to London specifically to > improve their lives. What you have/want is a > mono-culture. Despite professing respect for > law-abiding Bangladeshi's you didn't move to an > area with many of them did you. And I would be > interested to see how the Kent 'burbs would take > to an influx of Bangladeshi people You are behind the times Seany,old love:)..The Kent 'burbs have had an influx of Nigerians(and other West Africans) and Asians and many other Racial Groups recently.My next door neighbour is Lithuanian(unthinkable 25 years ago) over the road Asian(who have just converted their property into the nicest in the road)...These people are of a certain mindset and come with a certain good attitude.i.e.they want to get away from areas rightly associated with crime,want to take pride in their homes and area,and give their kids the best possible chance.They will,thus,be welcomed with open arms accordingly.I want to live with good,law-abiding decent people..factors like Colour are irrelevant.As I said earlier if people have takenthe time and trouble to leave their friends and (often) elderly relatives,have left areas where generations of their Families had happily existed then it says much about them does it not? "Mono-Culture"???...Extraordinary comment!..Get to know Asian people,the Chinese,East Europeans,Jewish people in areas like Redbridge,Golders Green,Hampstead Garden Suburb and Newbury Park or go to the most prominent Black Website.they will ALL tell you that they would LOVE to live in the afore-mentioned "mono-culture"..at best they "tolerate" the indigenous "YT's" or "Greys" or "Bluefoots" ..I will not publish the myriad of more offensive terms..lol Sean:I sincerely suggest you "Google" Black British Forums find the leading Forum(its obvius which one) and read and learn and then tell me who REALLY wants to live in a "Mono-Culture!!". p.s.Just hearing on the BBC about 2 French Students set alight who died in New Cross.There is a murder enquiry.Who would have thought on South-East London 2008.?? London is STILL one of the most vibrant Cities in The World! I could extol the virtues of my beloved Hometown ad nauseum,ad infinitum..It can be extremely stimuating and educational to learn from all people that you encounter and we all know how diverse London is:)..Only this tuesday I spent a day in Notting Hill/Kensington/Queensway/West End/Westminster etc.only around 300 other London areas to go.My love of London and its peoples is immense .all the more reason why I hate the fact that I feel its not the right environment to bring up ones children these days,sadly. p.p.s.You still did not explain why easily the poorest London Community i.e The Bangla-Deshis only commit(at most) very neglible street crime?...I have answered your points,kindly answer my one question...pretty please :)

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Nice way to uphold your maxim of free speech and > free thought mad world> > Natasha. . Say poverty? Sean PLEASE be the first person EVER lol..to give me an answer to this!!!..If it is "poverty" then why are the most impoverished Community in London i,e The Bangla-Deshis some of the most(if not the most) law-abiding?..Their Community is virtually free of street crime.... (After your reply,I will give you my thoughts. Over to you....

Horsebox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > snorky Wrote: > > bad feeling about the way this is going > Yes, me too.> > Something to do with "ordinary decent people". ...As I made that comment allow me to elaborate..All(virtually) of my friends come from a Working-Class (invariably) South London background.They wanted to improve their life and left "Inner" London accordingly.They wanted to move to an area with like-minded people who wanted away from crime-ridden areas(YOU decide which ones they are-I have my own views formed since 1965)..43 long years ago..this philosphy applies to all people.The fact that they have uprooted their lives for the sake of their Families speaks volumes,I feel,about the character of the overwheling majority of these people.Its not a revolutionary concept wanting to better their lifestyle and give their children the best possible chance!:)

taper Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Not sure the "vibe" was > particularly good for people like Stephen > Lawrence. That disgusting incident was in 1993...15 years ago. There have been many equally tragic deaths like Scott Osbournes (kicked to death outside Lewisham Tescos by 5 youths) within a 6 mile radius of Stephen's death over the last 15 years..The "vibe" was not good for any of those victims either!

bignumber5 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And if I stick my head a really long way into the > sand, I can't see anything bad at all... I can not invent things that I have not seen! I heard recently about an "incident" in Bexleyheath..9 months ago there was a murder only 5 minutes drive away but if there was a problem I'm sure either I or other Guys living in the area would have commented on it at some point..The fact is that this area is considerably safer,whether you wish to accept that is a different thing altogether.

"Ignorance" is NOT "Bliss" in this case.A backhanded compliment if ever I heard one Muffintop! The sad thing is that I have met many fellow White Guys who do not realise their patronising and ignorant manner when they,also,make a similar statement. Mind you it does work the other way too! If you peruse the primary British Black Forum there is NO WAY any of the contributors will praise the looks of a YT! No chance whatsoever! I have never seen a comment praising White "Beauty" in 4/5 years of observation!

taper Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Welling was for a long time the headquarters of > the BNP, until they were run out of town. Did all > those "indigenous" chaps contribute to the "British feel" I wonder? The area is "primarily" composed of ordinary decent people who wanted to buy their own house,live in a peaceful and pleasant green neighbourhood and live on the outskirts of London.They individually and collectively felt that there was a safer "feel" about the whole area and that has proved to be true. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.Most of this people(or their Parents) vividly recall an Inner South London that had the same vibe "back in the day"...

bignumber5 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Tony, i'm sorry to burst your bubble, but i know a > good few of the staff in Sidcup A&E and it's not a > stabbing-free zone.......Yes,apparently it has deteriorated but I have never,personally,seen any problem on the streets in or near Sidcup so it can not that prevailant. > > And looking at your own area with rose-tinted > specs isn't exactly helping the situation of > postcode division, where people in the burbs don't > give a shit about the rising violent-crime rate > because they (wrongly) assert that it doesn't > concern their sleepy little world. It does not directly affect them anymore but I can assure you that there are "thousands" of Southern Suburbanites who feel extreme resentment that they felt that they were "forced" to move out from areas where Generations of their families had happily lived.I would hazard a guess that 70% of the good burghers of North Kent "emigrated" from South London from The 1960's onwards.They did not all "independently" and miraculously decide they wanted to experience the Green Belt!..They(in the main) were escaping from what they experienced around them in their everyday life,sadly.They wanted their children to have a better chance than they felt they would have had back "home"....as for me 25 years on,I still go back nearly every week thru' nostalgia and love for an area where I had a myriad of great memories during my formative years.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > tonys comment about the future of london not being > orange bothers me the most Sean:I was trying to make a light-hearted attempt to joke about the situation...if you look at the Asian/Chinese/Jewish Communities,for example,you can see that they are tremendous assets to our Society.They tend to be extremely hard-working and family-orientated and (generally) a credit to their Cultures and Race.I WISH I could say that about every Community since my earliest observations since the Mid-1960's but I can not(in general)..based on over 40 years first-hand experience.

Asset Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Wasn't one of the recent knife attacks in Sidcup? Yes! I assumed(knowing the "make-up" of the area) that we had our first indigenous teenage murderer out of the 44 since January,2007.I was wrong! The chief suspect and 3/4 accomplises were of the same description making that 40 out of the 44. cases,a remarkable statistic.The others being "Arabic"/"Turkish"=Jimmy Mizen and 1 Asian.....the profile of the assailants(from eye witness accounts of each murder) is nearly always the same I'm afraid(like the suspects in Ben's death the other day).

missd Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > i am inclined to agree with Louisa on this one. > > > It does make me wonder whether London is a city > that i want to bring my kids in and unfortunately, > despite all of its positives - and there are lots > - i seriously think a lot about moving overseas > when it comes to kids. Please do not! We need all the decent people to remain! A simple move to The Suburbs(only 20 mins by train or 20 mins at night by car) will mean the World of difference.I left Peckham environs 25 years ago to live on the edge and it has been a GREAT move with little problems..The houses are cheaper than Inner London and there is still an English/British fel to the area.People even acknowledge courtesies on the road in 90% of the cases.No area is "perfect" but the chances of being an innocent victim are greatly reduced and I only have seen one incident since 1983 when I reluctantly moved as it was obvious to all my friends and myself what the future was going to be like..and it wasn't "orange"..lol

Please see my message i.r.o of The North Kent Suburbs!

Saw this post and just had to register and reply!...It is all about "scale and proportion"..YES! They are crimes everywhere(First murder in The Orkney Islands for 25 years recently!)...however the chances of being innocently caught up in street crime in FAR,FAR higher in certain areas(Peckham being a perfect example)..My Dentist is still only yards from the Murder spot but I fled(along with all my friends) 25 years ago.What a fantastic decision to leave "my" beloved Inner South London!...In 25 years living right on the edge(half-a-mile from a SE London postal district) I have only seen ONE local incident in The Welling Areas.I do not even lock my car at night!..Only yesterday I went out all day with my car in my drive with the window wide open and no-one at home.2 years ago I,accidently,went out and left my front door(with 4 dogs inside) wide open for 3 hours with no repercussions.The area is soooo reminiscent of my Walworth/Camberwell/Peckham childhood of The 1960's/1970's.I live near 180 acres of parkland(75 yards)and my home is only ?200,000 so nothing special!.I'm 15/20 mins at night away from Peckham and yet light years away i.r.o Quality of life for my Family.We are near Woods/Meadows/Parks and only 15/20 mins from the Heart of Kent. I have to say,from first-hand experience,we visualized what was coming and regrettably we were right. There is no comparison between the chances of being robbed/mugged in my area than my former area,yet crime is in bothareas..its the DEGREE of crime that is different!