root

LondonMix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > That's not what I said. I said the people who > want to leave because of sovereignty are older and > wealthy Tories. I am more than aware that most > Brexiters want to leave because they want to > curtail immigration. > You mean you want to leave the EU because you hate Europeans?

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > So you're admitting that you're being patronising, > and you're also arguing with others that there are > no 'non-bigoted' reasons for brexit. Doesn't that > mean you've technically lost the argument you were > trying to put across? If you even had one? > > Louisa. What I'm saying is that a lot of people here are too limited to have a valid opinion. Sadly they do have a vote though. To be fair, the only 'reasoned' (although I don't agree with the motive) I heard was about 10 years ago from a non European immigrant taxi driver who was complaining that with all the new EU countries it's become difficult for his community to bring in their friends and family over.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Honestly root, I respect any opinion, but I really > struggle with your stance on this. I've given > plenty of rational arguments, sure not everyone > will agree with them but they are all part of the > argument. I think you are taking it all far too > personally if you are seriously asking what the > non-bigoted examples for brexit are. Patronising > to be honest. > > Louisa. I am patronising, and I can't really blame myself.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > No Rah - I haven't scoured this thread at all; > that was just the first E.G of an awareness that > Root has been 'ranting' about Brexiters, as others > seemed to have agreed at a few points too! My > point remains, there are plenty of decent > non-bigoted arguments for Brexit.... And those would be?

I'll add persecution complex to the delusions of grandeur

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Fair enough, I suspect that we will see > significant downswing in the economy and likely an > extension to austerity. I suspect immigration will > remain fairly high if it drops at all (in my view > no bad thing) and if it doesn't there will be > further damage to the economy. If so there will be > further deterioration in public services. But this > of course is the judgment everyone will have to > make for themselves. It's plain delusions of grandeur.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... > > > try going in any working mans clubs in the > > north > > > and preaching that mantra to people who've > lost > > > jobs, can't get on the housing list and are > > > waiting longer than ever to get an operation > at > > > hospital. > > > > > > > I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was > > Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody > > immigrants. > > And why do these people come here to work? Because > of freedom of movement, the same freedom that > allows other Europeans to come here and be > entitled to use the very same NHS which is already > under strain from lack of investment. Europeans > contribute, but they also take out. That's part of > the whole freedom of movement 'luxury'. The issue > isn't about who they are, it's how many are here > and the impact it is having on public services and > housing. > > Louisa. Why do you think people like myself are here?

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Can you explain that... How leaving the EU will > lead to an increase in social housing? I think it means expelling the foreigners and take up residence where them foreigners are currently squatting.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... > try going in any working mans clubs in the north > and preaching that mantra to people who've lost > jobs, can't get on the housing list and are > waiting longer than ever to get an operation at > hospital. > I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody immigrants.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... > > > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston > that > > > it's sad we are talking about immigration all > > the > > > time. Some people may well feel we aren't > > talking > > > about it enough. > > > > > > Louisa. > > > > That assumes that the failure of successive > > governments to build social housing, whilst > > selling off the stock we have is in fact the > fault > > of immigrants. > > When we have a population which is growing year on > year (primarily but not exclusively as a result of > freedom of movement from the EU), coupled with a > lack of social house building it is inevitable > that people at the bottom of the pile will start > pointing fingers and being a bit pissed off with > government and start blaming the people coming > here for their woes. If we pull out of the EU we > won't solve the housing crisis overnight, but the > strain being put on our infrastructure will at > least be able to be controlled more directly from > within our own borders. It is of course not the > fault of the migrants coming here and it is very > sad that they are taking the blame for a problem > we created ourselves by ever joining this > undemocratic union of nations. > Most europans around the uK are gainfully employed and net contributors. They work, they pay their taxes be ith through income tax and vat on products and services. They also rent, shop at Tesco, drink at the pub, etc etc. Are you advocating taking that out of the economy?

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- .... > > it's sad we are talking about immigration all > the > > time. Some people may well feel we aren't > talking > > about it enough. > > > > Louisa. > > That assumes that the failure of successive > governments to build social housing, whilst > selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault > of immigrants. Pretty much :-)

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What I find more depressing is people sat in their > ivory tower in London feeling sad about the > rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course > further reinforces the view in the poorest regions > that the political elite in this city are totally > out of touch with the rest of the country. Try > telling a family who have been sat on the housing > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that > it's sad we are talking about immigration all the > time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking > about it enough. > Maybe london should exit the UK. To heck with all the riffraff outside the M25.

LadyNorwood Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In any other country it would be called > patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia.... I think you're mistaking patriotism for ultra-nationalism.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I do find the anti immigration rhetoric pretty > depressing. I have two friends in particular, who > can barely bring themselves to talk about it, they > are so upset. It may sound OTT, but you can see > that they're genuinely shocked and hurt by the > strength of anti immigration feeling. They have > taken it very personally and no longer feel > welcome in the UK (perhaps they're not). It's > really horrible. It is very very much the case.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anti-immigration sentiment is not always a > straight case of racism. If I was in need of > social housing and there was none available, I'd > probably be anti-immigration to an extent. Those > of us in privileged positions often tend to just > see the more positive sides of immigration... You mean, if you were in a dire situation, you're most likely to blame a foreigner for your misfortune?

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... > > troglodyte who doesn't like European > constraints > > such as environmental policies whose long term > > sustainability a free market or local short > term > > gains don't guarantee. > > > the weather must be lovely in the utopian bubble > in which you live.... No such thing as Utopia, but structure, consistency and capacity. I used to call the UK home but given the antagonism I've even personally exposed to over the past months in the build up of this English nationalism I'm seriously considering giving this country the middle finger and moving somewhere where people are more civilised.

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > root Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > Actually you summed it up. The only reasons to > leave the EU are racist and xenophobic. > > As a solid Remainer, I would say that calling the > other side names really doesn't help. merely stating a fact. It's either ultra nationalism, or xenophobia, or breaking free from environmental regulations. There's not much else.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Getting very sick of some media outlets and people > on social media implying that leaning towards > voting to leave automatically means you're a > racist or xenophobe. Because seemingly there > couldn't possibly be any other reason that might > be a valid consideration for such a huge economic, > political, and social decision. > ... Actually you summed it up. The only reasons to leave the EU are racist and xenophobic. The delusion that by virtue of being English you are better than everyone else and Europe and the rest of the world will crawl to you on their knees begging to be invited to your birthday party. The delusion that your kids and grandkids will have more opportunities growing up on this island (well, part of one after Scotland and Wales secede) instead of part of a 500 million strong and culturally and economically diverse continent. Other reasons do exist, such as being a total troglodyte who doesn't like European constraints such as environmental policies whose long term sustainability a free market or local short term gains don't guarantee.

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone know if polling cards have been sent out > yet?. I haven't received one. I've received mine. Suppose cos I'm registered using my Irish passport.

DulwichFox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Being in the E.U is like a bird inside an egg.. > > You need to crack that shell and find out was is > on the outside.. > > Get out.. Take control.. Have some say.. Yep, delusions of grandeur

pato Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I m not English but have been living in this > country long enough to understand that leaving > Europe will be plenty of risks for You and none of > this risks are worth taking... > It might be better for You or not but why taking > the risks?? > One above the others: Do You realise if the LEAVE > campaign wins You might have Boris as a prime > minister?? > Hope You realise that and the consequences...:) pato, this has nothing to do with risks. This is purely about Nationalistic sentiments and nostalgia/delusions of glorious days of empire. You know ...."Ruuuuule Brittania, tra la la la la"

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... > > So much of what has been raised in the debate has > nowt to do with the EU and is dependent on > domestic politics. The main reason the last lot > delivered anything on the environment was due to > the Lib Dems, now they have gone..... > ... Environmental protection is (rightly so) quite high up on EU agenda: http://ec.europa.eu/environment/basics/home_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/environment/legal/implementation_en.htm Then you get the likes of Farage:

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > UKIP has some nice policies - so they can cover > all the bases. They will never get in so it is > irrelevant but it makes the seem nicer. such as their environmental pillage policies?

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... > > So then a Tory party still wouldn't rule in > perpetuity. Unless every other party (both in > existence and any that might emerge) is > monumentally stupid and stays further from the > centre than the Tories. Is that a challenge?

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Oooh, congratulations! Your mum must be very > proud. Not really the same has having a relevant > qualification in medical/scientific field though, > is it? Precisely, you hit the nail on the head. I am not a clinician. I am not medically trained, which is why I do not make health claims. However, I do expect people to make claims or present themselves as experts in healthcare to be suitably qualified and to also be able to provide evidence that backs up their claims.