TheCat

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's a long article. How am I supposed to know > which parts you are referring to? What you agree > with and what you reject? > > There is a long list of black people dying at the > hands of Police. Every time it happens, change is > demanded, accountability is demanded, and nothing > changes. When cases are brought, the officers are > always acquitted. Will that be different this > time? Why would anyone think it will be? And when > all that is done, whose fault is it? The Police > Force, the Law, the government, or the education, > parenting and culture of the person who snuffed > out yet another life in their custody? Go to any > football terrace (well not at the moment > obviously) and you will hear racist chants. It IS > systematic, but it is also deeply ingrained in > sizeable parts of our culture, and we ARE > collectively responsible for doing something about > that. Also....you know what....my entire argument is calling for a different approach. Maybe the current approach is not working????

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's a long article. How am I supposed to know > which parts you are referring to? What you agree > with and what you reject? > > There is a long list of black people dying at the > hands of Police. Every time it happens, change is > demanded, accountability is demanded, and nothing > changes. When cases are brought, the officers are > always acquitted. Will that be different this > time? Why would anyone think it will be? And when > all that is done, whose fault is it? The Police > Force, the Law, the government, or the education, > parenting and culture of the person who snuffed > out yet another life in their custody? Go to any > football terrace (well not at the moment > obviously) and you will hear racist chants. It IS > systematic, but it is also deeply ingrained in > sizeable parts of our culture, and we ARE > collectively responsible for doing something about > that. I guess naturally this whol conversation goes to the injustice. I don't deny the injustice. But questioning a little, means you get labelled with the lot. It's a tough subject, I knew I was in for it when I posted.....But sometimes it's worth it to see what others think.....

I was hope my preamble would help you look past his bluster (I'm not advocating the whole article) to the specific couple of examples he cites. But perhaps not. It's hard arguing online:)

I concede that 'spiked' is antagonistic....But look past the fruity phrases. There are real examples that would make people be silent... https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/03/i-did-not-kill-george-floyd/

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The problem is Cat, that you have alluded to open > discussion being suppressed from white people, but > haven't given a single example and I would still > like you to list just who has been stopped from > airing views on social media. Because as far as I > can see, those who have been banned from SM are > extremists who peddle nonsense like 'The Great > Replacement' and other racist conspiracy rubbish. > You are very good at skirting around what you > would really like to say. So let's cut to the > chase eh? ;) very fair comment Blah Blah. Look, I'm not talking about anyone (that I know) being actually silenced, and resrticted from speaking in a literal sense. Im talking about the dominant culural narrative (in the world i live in at least). I made very clear in the OP that I was talking about the 'uber-progressive' language associated with this issue. so im talking generically about the arguments I hear. The post was actually motivated (as ive said earlier in the thread) by seeing smart people prostrating themselves on social media on tuesday (#blackoutuesday) and suggest they had nothing of value to add to the discourse. Wouldnt it be better if well meaning people gave their opinions? (within the context of listening to the victims of course). Why do these well meaning people we all know on social media feel that they are not allowed to comment? In all honesty thats my point. So to answer your question, I beleive the discussion is being supressed by social pressure...not by acutal legislation or regulation. Very simialr to the rascim issue itself, all our lawas say everyone is equal and discrimination is bad, but it still happens. Im just raising a small point within that system. Of course my concerns shouldnt supercede any victims of racism concerns. But its amazing how many people (on this thread) extrapolate that's what I think, becuase thats what their prejudices beleive that I 'really mean' when they hear me questioning anything around this issue.

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sharing this incredible organisation, The Black > Curriculum. > A section of their website is below: > "Currently, the national curriculum and exam board > specifications are limited in providing Black > British history. Furthermore, Black history is not > mandatory in schools which follow their own > curriculum. Without the resources, time and > understanding, we are still going to face the same > problems of historical inaccuracies, bias and a > lack of enthusiasm in teaching and delivery. In > the same manner, we can not simply rely on parents > and carers to provide this material to young > people. > Black British history is not merely a theme for > October, but started hundreds of years before > Windrush and pre-dates European colonial > enslavement. Our work aims to address and overcome > these limitations by seeking to provide a > contextual, globalised history that roots the > Black British experience in histories of movement > and migration - 365 days a year. > We want to help prepare students to become fully > rounded citizens and ready for an increasingly > globalised world. Our curriculum is grounded in > the arts for young people to engage with history > imaginatively, encouraging student satisfaction > and critical thinking skills. Through our holistic > approach we aim to remedy a wider systemic > issue." > Changing the school curriculum would make a > difference in the fight against systemic racism. > All children need to learn about a diverse range > of voices, histories and perspectives in school. > If you could spare 2 minutes, please send an > e-mail to Gavin Williamson - The Black Curriculum > have written a fantastic template. > Thank you! > https://www.theblackcurriculum.com/action im all for this. why wouldnt we want more diverse education? sounds great. I dont agree with every sentence of the pre-drafted email to gavin, but believe it or not, I sent one (with some slightly altered language, but the message is the same). im glad you didnt stay away and offended Dulwich B&B:)....this is interesting.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > pk Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > TheCat Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > I should listen to people discussing those > > > experiences > > > > > > and yet you don't, you criticise unidentified > > > people for saying things that you don't > > understand > > > > > > Listening is not the same thing as blindly > > endorsing everything that someone says. One can > > listen and then ask questions. It's how we > learn > > PK. > > so what has the man who thinks he doesnt need more > education on racism learnt? > > > > > But the evidence keeps mounting that you take a > > different view. > > what evidence are you talking about? you ignoring > questions asked of you? > > > > Can you quote me one of those clever people > again please....? > > how about: > > ?Privilege is when you can afford to sit back and > criticize others who have to fight for the things > you take for granted.? okay. pk, im done with you my friend. you may dislike my posts, and have a mission to just shoot me down, rather than actually engage. that's fine. But the fact is you still cant say ANYTHING constructive. you snipe and snipe, but never actually say anything of value. love me or hate me (or not really give a sh!t about me)....one thing i can never be accused of is not putting a view out there; allowing it to be torn down by the likes of you...someone who cant formulate an arguement (and expose it to criticism) to save themselves. also. its obvious the last quote is you. its the most simple thing i've read on this thread.

Ronnijade Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sounds about white... I see what you did there. Do you actually have something insightful to add (on anything that I or anyone else has actually said)? or do you just want to continue sniping from the sidelines because you cant seem to grasp the subtleies of the discussion? Without purposfully trying to twist words, take comments out of context or deliberatley misinterpret....can you please point me to the sections of this thread which you find so abhorrent, leading you to twice call for it to be shut down?

Nigello Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I agree that the sometimes arcane language and > references can cloud the issue. It becomes another > layer of division or is used as a sword and > shield. It?s almost like an industry and as such > is self referential and solipsistic. Talk open and > freely and listen but don?t use terms that until > twitter came along were usually found in > specialist texts. Everyone?s entitled to a POV. > The more clearly it is expressed, and the more > intently it is listened to the better. Great comment.

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They are allowed to comment The Cat but you do > come across quite offensive and that is the issue. > I find you offensive. They are allowed to comment. As are you. And as am I. Not much I can do about your offense, sorry. That's the thing about offence, it's subjective.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I should listen to people discussing those > experiences > > and yet you don't, you criticise unidentified > people for saying things that you don't understand Listening is not the same thing as blindly endorsing everything that someone says. One can listen and then ask questions. It's how we learn PK. But the evidence keeps mounting that you take a different view. Can you quote me one of those clever people again please....?

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you! > > > > ???? Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Jeeez cat 'understanding my white privilege and > > seeing it as psrt of the solution blah blah' is > a > > nice theoretical debate, systematic racism and > day > > to day discrimination is something that you and > I > > (as a white male) know absolutely @#$%& all > about > > and not some intellectual exercise. 100 percent agreed. That's the whole point....look at the OP (and the attachment to the OP)...I'm specifically questioning all the uber theoretical language that surrounds the issue. And I think as a result, the public debate has been hijacked and seen plenty of people disengage to a large degree. As I say in that post, the layer upon layer of rules about who is entitled talk about what, and when and how and to who is ridiculous. Of course I don't experience day to day racism like a minority would. So I should listen to people discussing those experiences. But if the claim is that we have systemic racism...then surely the solution involves EVERYONE in the system having a view on the solution. And my issue with all this is with the media narrative that white people aren't really allowed to comment...which seems counter-productive to me....

Ronnijade Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > None of this should even be a discussion Sorry?...we should not discuss racial prejudice and society's attitudes and approach to trying to address it? Your attitude is part of the problem I'm afraid. You clearly haven't actually read most of the thread with any semblance of openmindedness or objectivity. Just knee-jerk reaction to the fact that a sensitive issue is being discussed.

pk Wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > so so so pathetic So you've doubled down on your 'pathetic' line of argument? Good for you. It's not much, but it's all you have. Oh, and while we're talking 'pathetic'. Let's remember that your original involvement in this thread was not to comment on the topic. No. It was for no other reason than post a personal insult at me. You really are a joy.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > no it's not > > > it's not to do with your race or gender > > > > > so, so pathetic Chuckles. What a brilliantly insightful set of responses. Thank you so much pk for unambiguously proving my point. Gotta run now, but look forward to next time when you make me reconsider my whole world view by calling me 'pathetic'....hahahaha

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > pk Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > TheCat Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > I just don't get it. > > > > > > > for once we agree > > > > feel free to actually add something construcive > to > > the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself > > can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you > can > > do it. > > you've rolled out this type of > provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish > rubbish before about race and about gender so i > don't believe that someone who thinks that they > don't need any education on issues of > discrimination really wants to engage in > constructive discussion > > someone cleverer than you once said something > along the lines of: "if you have a critique of our > resistance, you better have a record of critiquing > our oppression" but for you it seems that you'd > rather call of black people and women for not > appreciating your 'good' (but ill informed) > intentions as a white man All you've just said there that I've said things that you don't agree with. So if someone says something that doesn't align with your worldview, they must just be being provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish? My views disagree with your own, so you won't 'engage' and try and change my mind.....you'll just dismiss me becuase of my race and gender...there's a name for people that do that.... But in seriousness, I don't think you're really a bigot, but I think we all know it's actually becuase if it's not written in the Guardian, or cant be parroted from people who are 'cleverer than me', then you've got a absolutley nothing of value to say..

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > It seems you have a different definition of > > privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black > > lives matter), who says that?"Privilege isn't > > about what you've gone through; it's about what > > you haven't had to go through." > > I am mystified as to how you can conclude that by > anything I wrote. Read my post again. It was a > valid point on the historical development of > entrenched privilege and why it is so hard to > compete with. If however you want to debate a > quote by Janaya Khan instead, that is fine (I > agree with her point too btw). Just don't conflate > that with anything I have not actually said ;) > > > So, surely by everyone being involved in the > > dialogue (rather than white people being > > #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on > > your viewpoint) means minorities can be > elevated > > so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no > one > > loses their privilege, just some people gain > > it..... > > But that ignores the central point I made about > self preserving entrenchment of class based > privilege. That exists. Those who have most never > want to give any of it up. If they did, there > would be no Monarchy, no public schools, no > institution of any sort that rewards people by the > luck of who they are born to. Yes we can have > detailed debates about that, but none of that > changes the inequalities caused by that > entrenchment of privilege. > > There was a documentary a little while ago that > looked at the struggles of Black graduates > entering into certain professions, like law, the > city etc. All the data shows that black students > can go to the same colleges as their white middle/ > upper class counterparts, do better in their final > results, but fail to be as successful as those > counterparts in being recruited to top city firms > etc. THAT is an example of white privilege self > preserving. It seeks to preserve its own class > culture. This is precisely why BAME/ working > class/ Women etc struggle to climb ladders and > break glass ceilings. And when they do, it because > they can play the game, become like those whose > club they are allowed into. It rarely changes the > other way round. okay fair enough...we're sort of talking to slightly different points to be fair. But they do compliment eachother I think....You're suggesting that people with privelige want to protect it. I would say that (unless its a bloody revolution), then the only way to coax them down off the mountain is by involving them in the conversation - people shouting from the bottom of the mountain about how the people at the top must behave without their buy-in is unlikely to be successful I would guess...

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I just don't get it. > > > for once we agree feel free to actually add something construcive to the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you can do it.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Cat, people love to jump on this one. > Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face. > Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of > "who's entitled to talk about what" on this > subject. Thanks. Exactly my point. When I see people who I know - who are smart, considered, and very anti-racist - prostrating themselves on social media, and suggesting they are not entitled to talk about the issue, I just don't get it. I'm guessing it all started with 'listen to the victims' which is fair...but its now morphed into 'listen ONLY to the victims'.....

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The answer to your question TheCat is in the role > that class, money, opportunity, and history, plays > in privilege. In most societies, that is owned by > a small percentage of the dominant ethnic group > and/or in some societies, the dominant cultural > group. The issue with Imperialism and Empire, is a > historical legacy of that being turned upside down > in 'acquired' colonies by a minority group who > exploit the rest. This is where the legacy of > white privilege finds its roots, with people of > other ethnic groups being the ones exploited most. > Black people understand this perfectly. So do many > white people. And you state, quite rightly, that > those who benefit from white privilege need to be > part of the solution. However, why would they be > incentivised to do anything that compromises the > privilege they enjoy? Most of them can't even > acknowledge the privilege they enjoy over other > white people, let along think they should do > anything to level the playing field. Privilege is > a self preserving construct. This is why very > little actually changes in the social order until > it is forced to do so. It seems you have a different definition of privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black lives matter), who says that?"Privilege isn't about what you've gone through; it's about what you haven't had to go through." So, surely by everyone being involved in the dialogue (rather than white people being #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on your viewpoint) means minorities can be elevated so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no one loses their privilege, just some people gain it.....

Ronnijade Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think anyone who questions racial injustice > probably has their priorities a bit muddled. You > may not be as well educated as you assume, TheCat. > I don?t see the point in this thread. And herin lies a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not questioning the existence of racial injustice in anyway. But I raise some questions about the narrative surrounding it, and all your blinkered mind sees someone denying racial injustice is a problem? All topped off by the classic woke-trope of 'educate yourself'...I.e.'you're questioning something that I unquestionably believe, it can't possibly be becuase there might other ways to think about it, it must be because you're ignorant of the things I 'know' to be true...you need to go educate yourself' FFS

So I'm a pretty passionate advocate for combating climate change, but I think the extinction rebellion people (while well meaning) are totally misguided in their approach. Does that mean I need 'more education' about climate change? Similaly...Ive read a bit on the racism topic, and while I (like many others)...would consider myself 'anti rascist'...I don't think I need 'more education'. I just happen to disagree with the ultra-progressive narrative in how to combat racial prejudice. I find it, in its purest form, highly divisive. Allow me to use woke/progressive language to make my point. Black (and other minorities) people, by virtue of their 'lived experience' are the only ones who can truly understand racism, right? But if 'White privilege' is part of the problem, then surely people who've experienced white privelige are also part of the solution. No black person can ever truly understand the mentality and experience of a person with white privilege (according to the same logic). So how can 'the oppressed' hope to find the language and the approach to dictate how the 'oppressors' should act, without ever really understanding what it's like to be an oppressor. Maybe they should just 'understand that they'll never understand'.... Ridiculous right? People who've experienced racism (systematic or otherwise) surely cannot hold a monopoly on the way the problem (in which EVERYONE is an actor) can be solved. They are or course vital contributors to any solution. But that solution will need to be a solution for ALL to be able to work sustainably. Dialogue, questions, different viewpoints (Ironically enough....diversity is what's needed). Not dismissal of even mild disagreement (with one approach) as simply a lack of 'education'.....

So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if I dont 'understand that i'll never understand'....and even if I try to understand, its also racist to ask a person of colour (the people who do understand) to explain it to me.... Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that any person of colour understands and can explain it to me, but not racial profiling to assume that i (as not a person of colour) will never understand. Also, good intentions arent enough, but try getting involved and you're probably a self-appointed White ally or have a white savior complex. (See attached for more) For clarity....the police/race issue in the US is clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any form, and we clearly all need to find ways to combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so many serious discussions on this issue are being hampered when the woke-police continue to add layer upon layer of verboten language/questions/behaviour. I beleive its got to the point that we (more often than not) cant even have a discussion about it? I've seen people taken down on television/social media for not blindly buying into every new catchphrase associated with this issue. (im sure someone will brand me racist for this thread) But....dont we tell children to ask as many questions as possible? dont we use phrases like "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there are no stupid questions'? I dont think im alone in wanting an open discussion on some of the more contentious views around this issue, but also not alone in that I dont want to be branded a racist for doing so. So - I'll just stay silent like a good many other people. And probabbly unfort be branded a rascist for doing that too.....

This is a perennial problem.....of the 10 years I've lived in ED (and there are of course many who have been here longer), Whitbread comes up every once in a while. Just like the dog shit on the footpath thread. Everyone seems to agree that it's bad, but it's still happens. I know that very occasionally, things can get left behind, but surely that doesn't explain it. It certainly doesn't explain the dog shit, as that is not a 'mistake'. I guess people are just c#nts.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Given the outraged response from so many > conservative voters and tory press after > yesterday?s debacle, we can at least agree this > isn?t some lefty obsession now? What do you mean by 'this'? The cummings issue? Cummings in general? Boris? The Tories? Leave? Genuine question.