Harsh-but-Fair

"Any pedestrian in the road for whatever reason has right of way." I am a big fan of roads for cars pavement for joggers! Mixing the 2 up is dangerous (well mainly for the joggers!) I think the apology was reasonable. I too as both a jogger and driver have come across indecisive and often selfish joggers who equipped with headphones are oblivious to the dangers of running between cars, and are affronted that they have to stop at a junction and jog on the spot - grumbling that the car driver has the audacity to be on the road. ibilly99 has a point -In the spirit of East Dulwich recycling- all joggers should carry donor cards!

It seems the debate is hotting up and there appears a sea cgange in opinion as we have now exhausted the rights of Mum argument and start thinking about the kids. To start comparing the risks of crossing the road with smoking whilst pregnant is daft, clearly intended to stir things up. "...i think it's important that some people are reminded how their behaviour impacts on others." Esme makes an excellent point people's individual rights do not always take preference. We are all constrained by our behaviour and actions. Telling someone that by them smoking it is potentially harming their baby is perhaps a socially responsible thing to do. Both my children were born at Kings and the amount of literature and advice available on the importance of giving up could sink a ship. You cannot hide behind addictions as there is more than you to now think about. You ought to be informed.

every person feels it their duty to comment." ...indeed it is a contentious issue that we all have an opinion on. The act or behaviour of anyone endangering the unborn child or newly born is just wrong. "Your logic seems to compare smoking and drinking to attempted murder/intent to procure a miscarriage." You asked and IMO as I see it that there are legal protections and restrictions prohibiting a mother to be from acting in a way that may cause injury to the unborn. I qualified it by saying it is off topic.

Ditto 'stupidity' PLimsoul. I don't buy this 'under great stress' while pregnant either. Being pregnant is no doubt stressful at times for all women, but the majority are selfless enough to refrain, at least for 9 months, from activities which will endanger the life of their baby.

I agree that the intention shown under the above statute law requires a specific intention -or a high level of mens rea. But a basic intent or low level of intent is sufficient under the common law case- I believe the case is R. v McDonald [2002] NI 54. I can envisage a time where self induced activity such as smoking/drinking can give rise to a charge of gross negligence manslaughter. And yes, common law cases act as precedents and change over time. Judges can extend their meaning. Interesting I hadn't thought about the link till peckhamboy mentioned it. I'm off topic now I agree.

The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929, Offences Against the Person Act 1861 s58 and 59, case law such as R. v McDonald [2002] NI 54, Re Attorney Generals Reference (No 3 1994). Slightly extreme I admit and a little beyond the topic but the law is there and can be extended in time no doubt.

Lawrence. I do take your point. However like it or not we are living in a changing world where smoking has become less and less acceptable and it will in time no doubt become a secret and hidden pastime enjoyed by the few. The Labour government and most of Europe have seen fit to ban it from almost everywhere, work places , pubs etc. This will inevitably lead to it being classified as an anti social behaviour as the laws restricting it continue to stack up. I also take the point that mothers existed pre smoking, of course, but "...I think it is important to favour the rights of the mother, to do otherwise turns mothers into vessels, with no rights of their own." How intriguing but I disagree and believe that mothers are not allowed to do as they please, and there is legislation prohibiting forms of behaviour likely to injure or harm the unborn child. It is also well documented and researched that smoking parents on balance tend to have underweight and often iller babies than non smoking. I must stress that both my parents and grandparents smoked like chimneys throughout my upbringing but it was never right.

Hi prdarling I do not advocate verbally attacking anybody. I am simply agreeing that the OP has a point, which seems to be a minority point here on the forum, which I find unbelievable. The fact is that an intelligent bunch of people find favour with Mum to be because and her right to smoke over any health concerns for the unborn baby. You say "...personal freedom to do something which abeit disagreeable....", needless to say that I consider that this personal freedom should be discouraged to protect child born and those in utero.

Hi Helena Handbasket. Seems clear to me. Two simple questions followed by a supportive statement of OP and an opinion/observation. May I suggest a fourth read. Another observation as to how things have changed. The one who causes harm, ie smoking Mum to be, is protected by the group, yet the one who points out the risks is regarded as the social pariah. Odd methinks? As my old Pa would say ...no wonder we're going to the dogs Just a final point re. Standwithfist's post: "We may have been lucky but at the end of the day it is I who would have to live with the consequenses of smoking during her pregnancy", surely it is the child who would have to live with the consequences of your smoking. Let us hope that she doesn't develop asthma later on, like I did.

Just a quick thought how many of us are smokers with children?. Has this affected our decision to support or condemn the OP? Some of the comments are interesting , some slightly overly emotional and nauseating and some deliberately inflammatory. I respect people who stand alone against the masses and I respect people holding a view contrary to mine. Some of you such as mumof3girlies also suggests that the OP is on the lookout for all forms of anti social behaviour, or perceived bad behaviour in the area which is interesting. I think the OP's comment were about the single issue of smoking and their arguments reasonable in my opinion. I obviously acknowledge the dangers to the smoker and others and baby of course. I feel some of the overtly PC liberal comments here are from people saying one thing and meaning another in reality. Why is it wrong to remonstrate with people over littering, smoking whilst pregnant or other forms of anti social behaviours. I wonder how many of us are chain smokers who smoke all over their kids and frankly don't give a sh*t.

Don't know where you got that info that it is 'scarcely harmful at all' to smoke in late pregnancy Chantelle since smoking limits the nutrition that a baby can receive. This can be particularly detrimental during late pregnancy, when the baby's brain is developing rapidly. There is also a growing body of evidence that nicotine has a direct damaging effect on developing nerve cells. In animals, even small doses of nicotine injected into the mother during pregnancy resulted in brain malformations, poor functioning, and learning problems. (No one knows what effects the hundreds of other chemicals in cigarette smoke have on a fetus, but they can't be good.)

Well it might make the woman ashamed enough to think seriously about alternatives such as nicotine patches or quitting. Fortunately you don't see many heavily pregnant women walking around smoking. I don't care if the one the OP is on about had one or 50 fags. What she was doing was wrong and she deserved to be criticised. My mother smoked throughout her pregnancy and as I said I have asthma and get a lot of chest infections. My sister had a really low birth weight. All these things are linked to smoking. My mother was pretty selfish and always prioritised her smoking. I seriously wish someone had had the gall to rant at her about it, and maybe my health would be better as a result. Babies are innocent beings smoking/drinking excessively/taking drugs while pregnant are a form of child abuse; the child has rights even though unborn. Someone should stand up for them since they can't.

Wow What a sad lot we have here. The fact that someone dare speak out in favour of the unborn child is fantastic. Th OP is IMO acting socially responsibly. I was brought up in a smoking household and now have asthma I wish perhaps the same had been said to my parents. A few harsh words to a smoking pregnant woman must be balanced against the millions of carcinogens leaking into the placenta causing temporary oxygen deprivation and possible longer term lung and brain complications to the foetus. No contest in my view. I'm not for a Nanny state but come on for f**** sake it's not rocket science there is a time to pause or pack in the fags and the time is when pregnant.

Thanks Dulwichmum for going back on topic.

Bob- I take it you've been smoking the ready rubbed, laced with something more herbal! Do you enjoy reinventing children's stories? Misogynism has no place on this forum, and my comment is not an attack at all. Asset - Yes, there is no need to enquire it's just by observation. bignumber3 I quite agree and my apologies for suggesting Sean made such a fatuous nonsensical remark. The sea is wet has more factual substance. The following really is a pointless comment: "....fertility does not exclusively correlate with maternal age at the exclusion of all other factors." Yes it does age is an absolutely fundamental factor in determining the likelihood of having children ie younger people have kids more easily than older people.

annaj Of course I am making a statement based on my observations of this area- that's the nature of this thread. I cannot completely agree with your statistics and do not observe old Mums in Dulwich as a hobby or pastime. I do have better things to do with my time. However I am generally surpised at the large number of acquantainces/friends who are receiving IVF and, consequently the huge numbers of pushchairs coming down Lordship Lane almost entirely pushed by middle class Mum's, looking knackered, bleary eyed and definitely 35 plus. Go out and have a look! Sean thanks for the comment but really "....fertility does not exclusively correlate with maternal age at the exclusion of all other factors." well it does a bit doesn't it or else why isn't Granny HBF popping them out with Gramps. The young conceive easier than the old- an incontrovertable truth!. Maybe we should accept with ageing comes the inevitable, or take a trip to that nice Italian Doctor and all have triplets/quadruplets! to further clog the pavement on Lordship Lane.

You know you're an East Dulwichite when.... you can engage in interesting debate without recrimination from the .......oh, never mind.

you ask if there a larger uptake of IVF within SE22 ! or am I being a little harsh (...but perhaps fair.) I have twice enquired why Granny is looking after little Jimmy when his Mum and Dad are at work ..only to discover that Granny is Mummy ...Eh..uhm! Suppose 45 isn't that old to have little 'uns Is it?

you notice that the average age of Mum's pushing bugaboos, in the area, has increased by 10 years!

I repeat what the majority thinks that the number of cars out of Colyton Rd is miniscule compared to those on Forest Hill Rd. It was a ludicrous idea to put the lights in and whoever did so clearly didn't do their homework. There is more congestion now as stated and the buses are often queued up because they're unable to drive around the turning car. I have never seen more than 1 car turning right off FH Rd.- this shows how little traffic travels down Colyton whereas FH Rd often has 20 cars/vans backed up!. Keep the crossing by the shops or shift it up nearer the Surgery, and put another on Colyton to access the park if need be this should help both ped's and drivers.

He's clearly barking....

You won't Winalot of friends with comments like that Davey Jones..teehee

Wish they trim the trees on Whately Rd. I'm fed up with getting a head full of leaves, bugs and tree bits on my suit daily! I've even resorted to walking on the road and trying to avoid sleepy school drop drivers, and cyclists with umpteen kids attached precariously to their bikes!

I concur with Mr Ofski. The TCC is legendary and although a bit short on tables on a Sat night is well worth the money. Excellent food and nice staff.