Huguenot

Sorry for any misunderstanding tt3, I wasn't taking the mickey, I genuinely think you need to calm down and get some help. I'm going to have to put you on invisible right now, because it's clear that you're not going to take the advice, and for me I have better things to do than try and have a sensible conversation whilst a small kid is leaping around the room screaming 'look at me' at the top of their lungs. I hope that you can take some solace in the fact that you're the first person I've had to make invisible, that's quite some achievement. Best of luck, I wish you well.

tt3, when will you work out that the only people who talk that way are teenage boys with ADD and an over-inflated view of their own importance in the world? Please relax and try to form a reasonably coherent argument. I believe James' reference was to the traditional labour strongholds in the north of the country. Whilst the Lib Dems weren't in power, their socially liberal policies could be interpreted as an alternative to Labour. However, the compromises they needed to make to enter into a coalition undermined that confidence and cost them votes. The baby-eating analogy is from Jonathan Swift and refers to Ireland, the SNUB insult seems rather unpleasant way to refer to some hardworking and altruistic people.

How do they know which has has the Freelander keys? Is there a tag that could be removed?

I should have thought that the only people who don't like the word 'Europhile' are 'Europhobes'. I haven't come across any association between 'europhile' and idiocy, and even if there were I wouldn't let the cynics win by trying to make their prejudice come true. I'm a europhile and I'm proud. As for the wishes of some europoliticians wanting a tramway to an sovereign Europe, I don't really see the relevance. They can want whatever they want to want. Doesn't mean they'll get it. The BNP want a white Britain, but they won't get it. The fact is that the European institutions portrayed by europhobes don't exist.

I don't quite understand your question Ridgley. A grove is a small group of trees, and since ED was predominantly a rural area until just over 100 years ago there's lots of 'grove' street names in ED. A mews (as in a row of buildings) is mainly used now to describe a converted stable block, but the history of the word is from the building used to house hunting birds. They were called 'mews' because it was where the birds were put when they were moulting, and the french word for 'change' is 'muer'. So if you like, 'mews' means 'changing rooms'. A place just means a location. Nothing complicated there - it comes from the latin word for courtyard.

Yeah, it'll be a challenge. One that we're quite capable of addressing. As said by someone else: "The 21st century will be different. China and India already lay claim to superpower status. Russia imperiously waves its nuclear arsenal and natural gas reserves as a VIP pass to international summits. Brazil has economic and diplomatic aspirations equal to its geographical expanse. "That doesn't mean Europe is in decline, or that individual states must subordinate their interests. It simply means that the rivalries of last century need to be held in perspective against the advantages of collaboration on a range of global issues: trade, security of energy supply, cross-border crime, climate change, migration, financial stability." And that's all it is - a cost/benefit calculation.

You can dislike 'Little Englander' if you want, it's definitely used to diminish views perceived as over protective or lily livered. I find anyone who rejects European integration simply on the basis that it's just too difficult do come across as a little bit wimpish. The fact that so many anti-European arguments are based on querulous untruths about johnny foreigner exerting control over the dignified but enslaved British nation reinforces the point. To be scared of something that doesn't exist is no less chicken hearted than a small child worried about the ogre in the cupboard. However, how you can see 'Europhile' as a smear is beyond me. The suffix '-phile' means platonic love, so I'm very proud to be a Europhile.

Yes, sorry, it was specifically books that were first published in English.

Any of these from this purported Top 50 books of the last century? I'm embarrassed to admit that I've read precious few on the list... 1. Ulysses by James Joyce 2. The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald 3. A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce 4. Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov 5. Brave New World by Aldous Huxley 6. The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner 7. Catch-22 by Joseph Heller 8. Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler 9. Sons and Lovers by D.H. Lawrence 10. The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck 11. Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry 12. The Way of All Flesh by Samuel Butler 13. 1984 by George Orwell 14. I, Claudius by Robert Graves 15. To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf 16. An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser 17. The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers 18. Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut 19. Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison 20. Native Son by Richard Wright 21. Henderson the Rain King by Saul Bellow 22. Appointment in Samarra by John O'Hara 23. U.S.A.(trilogy) by John Dos Passos 24. Winesburg, Ohio by Sherwood Anderson 25. A Passage to India by E.M. Forster 26. The Wings of the Dove by Henry James 27. The Ambassadors by Henry James 28. Tender Is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald 29. The Studs Lonigan Trilogy by James T. Farrell 30. The Good Soldier by Ford Maddox Ford 31. Animal Farm by George Orwell 32. The Golden Bowl by Henry James 33. Sister Carrie by Theodore Dreiser 34. A Handful of Dust by Evelyn Waugh 35. As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner 36. All the King's Men by Robert Penn Warren 37. The Bridge of San Luis Rey by Thornton Wilder 38. Howards End by E.M. Forster 39. Go Tell It on the Mountain by James Baldwin 40. The Heart of the Matter by Graham Greene 41. Lord of the Flies by William Golding 42. Deliverance by James Dickey 43. A Dance to the Music of Time [vol 1] [vol 2] [vol 3] [vol 4] by Anthony Powell 44. Point Counter Point by Aldous Huxley 45. The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway 46. The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad 47. Nostromo by Joseph Conrad 48. The Rainbow by D.H. Lawrence 49. Women in Love by D.H. Lawrence 50. Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller

For some reason I didn't, so I shall make amends. A JG Ballard phase?

And I thought that this thread was some kind of post ironic middle class piss-take?

I had *Bob* down as more of a Tom Clancy guy. I've seen him in jeans and a bomber jacket with a tiger's head on the back.

Hmm... Sophie's World?

Cottee once managed to play for a different team in each of the four top divisions all in one season! Which goalkeeper achieved the same feat?

Would Klinsmann count? Maybe not a footballing genius but he had plenty of accolades. For Germany and Bayern as manager he only lost 15 games out of 79, but it's not really a very long career.

;-) Well it was a thread about Kenneth Clarke and his views - and you brought it up first! And yes, of course I was hoping to get a rise. I don't think the concept of an integrated and consolidated Europe should be confused with frustration at bureaucracy. Ken said: "A lot will depend on relations with Europe, because Obama doesn't want his strongest European ally led by a rightwing nationalist. "He wants them to be a key player inside Europe, and he'll start looking at whoever is in Germany or France if we start being isolationist. "I think the need to be working with Obama will influence my party on Europe. "It is still firmly Eurosceptic but it's now moderate, harmless Eurosceptism. It's a bit silly sometimes, like which group do you join in the European parliament, but full-blooded stuff like renegotiating the treaty of accession is as dead as a dodo. "We've got lots of ideas on European policy on energy, security, relations with Russia, climate change, all that kind of thing [but] somebody like me is far more relaxed about all that [and if the Tories] get into office the pressure of the American alliance will make them more European." Fairly obvious common-sense rather than 'poor instincts'. The fact is that a substantial number of the Tory party are petty nationalists, and are willing to exploit xenophobia to the disadvantage of the nation. Conversely Ken is far more considered.

I'll take your word for it Quids. But I'll be honest and say that I don't know what a right-on guardianista is? I've heard your and hunca's characterisation of it, but I've never met someone who matches the description. It certainly doesn't seem to match anyone I know who reads the Guardian. The closest I can get was the more militant female side of the labour group at university - but they all grew out of it when they wanted to buy a house.

Rijkaard?

I'm never quite sure that huncamunca knows who his target is. For instance the discussion of the Hastings and Whitstable blow-ins talks about them as Guardianistas - but aspirational middle classes read the Mail in Hastings, not the Guardian. Likewise the social climbing self-righteous gossips he describes are best characterised by Hyacinth Bucket, a notorious Mail reader. Similarly huncamunca talks about a social set that are 'bodenfaced' - perfectly clear that this is a set for whom brands are a badge of honour - but then claims that they have 'No Logo' on their shelf as if were elevated to biblical status. This is a contradiction. It's inconsistent. I didn't really see any problem with No Logo. It was just kind of stating the obious and was a bit preachy. Nothing to get excited about.

As any fule no, Quids is already certifiable ;-) "More serious, the paper carried out little investigation of its own nor unearthed any significant new facts. Its indictment was based largely on police belief. But the police are not always right. That is the purpose of a trial: to ensure the prosecution's evidence is fully tested." And just to pop one on the Mail... "Cynics can point to a very belated conversion by the Mail. Until yesterday, the Mail's coverage of the shameful killing had been somewhat peripheral. The murder was only mentioned in three stories in the last year before the inquest, only six the previous year, and just 20 since the murder was committed." That having been said, I do sincerely hope they nail the bastards.

Eh? A thread about a newspaper headline from February 1997?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha Huncamunca, the scourge of the chattering classes, curse of the guardian readers and bane of the coffee drinkers sells ART!!!! Ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha Bonk.

"Fifty years from now, Britain will still be the country of long shadows on county grounds, warm beer, invincible green suburbs, dog lovers and - as George Orwell said - old maids bicycling to Holy Communion through the morning mist." Some people still believe this bollocks. That's a tragedy. But what turns it into a catastrophe is that people make political decisions based on this delusion. Kenneth Clarke was bright enough to understand that.

pk's response is typical of the problem, and rather bemusing. The fact is that two enthusiastic, willing and engaged sexual conspirators at the age of 15 years and 364 days is 'rape'. The next day it isn't. This cannot and should not be confused with rape as it refers non-consensual sexual intercourse. That's all Ken was saying. I agree with him. People can find offence wherever they want to, as pk's response clearly demonstrates. BTW despite Marmora Man's views, Clarkes views on Europe are both inspired and productive, it is merely a shame that right wing politicians with more than a passing resemblance to vegetables have stifled his opinion and gagged his input. 'Little England' has no basis in reality and no future for the people. It's a bizarre delusion in grown-ups and mostly sustained by a craving to divide and conqure the nation.

I tried to be a really good neighbour when we did the same thing, and I was very lucky to have a kind and considerate neighbour in return. Dependent upon the terms of the extension for your own concerns, but mine didn't have any real long term impact. However, the nurks battering down walls in my own terrace broke the glass in the shower next door, and they started bunging crap out of the windows into the skip which made everyone's car filthy and pissed everyone off. Because I'm an evil bastard, I made the builders wash every neighbour's car once a week until the job was finished, and of course made good all the damage and offered everything I could in recompense for the discomfort. The lesson? Do everything you can to share and resolve mutual problems.