Huguenot

Are there any gay chavs?

No CWALD, that's not right. International travel restrictions are about contemporary economics, not about tired old proletariat claptrap. ;-). The rest of the world mainly thinks Brits are wallies. I do however take your point about accidents of birth. Humans have this wierd tribal thing going on, where you're seen as a representative rather than an individual. Even so, it's hypocritical to reject one tribe (the 'nation state') in order to support another (the 'proletariat') on the basis that tribalism is pants.

How can you travel under your own rocket power?

Ernie?

;-)

Can we go short on property? Perhaps I could sell a house now on the basis that by the time we complete I'll be able to get the property at a cheaper price than the one agreed at the exchange?

Just bored myself to death reading the whole thread again. There wasn't a single person on here who thinks it's okay to "discriminate against gay people because you're an easy target". It is perhaps one of the tragedies of the gay community that, for a minority, an inability to see normal life through anything but gay-coloured glasses has established a verbose isolationist faction. "Is it 'coz I is gay?". Tell you what, no it's not. There do however, on this forum, seem to be an unreasonable number of people predisposed against hypocrisy. As for the the pathology of semi-literate medieval societies, which fish shall we fry first? These are substantially bigger than gay issues.

Run that past me again CWALD, it's dangerous to stop at red lights?? :))

Hi Mells, I didn't quite understand that one, do you think people should fill in forms who haven't had any treatment?

Thought this was fun, so maybe you guys will enjoy? ;-) There's an intriguing clash at the beginning of verse four that could have been easily resolved. I don't know whether this is deliberate by Mr. Noel or just crappy interweb stuff where I picked it up... Do I believe in God? Well yes, I suppose, in a sort of way; It's really terribly hard to say. I'm sure there must be, of course, Some kind of vital, motive force, Some power that holds the winning cards Behind life's ambiguous facades, But whether you think me odd or not I can't decide if it's God or not. I look at the changing sea and sky And try to picture eternity; I gaze at immensities of blue And say to myself "It can't be true That somewhere up in that abstract sphere Are all the people that once were here, Attired in white and shapeless gowns Sitting on clouds like eiderdowns Plucking on harps and twanging lutes With cherubim in their birthday suits, Set in an ageless, timeless dream Part of a formulated scheme Formulated before the Flood Before the amoeba left the mud And, stranded upon a rocky shelf Proceeded to subdivide itself." I look at the changing sea and sky And try to picture infinity; I gaze at a multitude of stars Envisaging the men on Mars, Wondering if they too are torn Between their sunset and their dawn By dreadful night-engendered fears Of what may lie beyond their years And if they too, through thick and thin, Are dogged by consciousness of Sin. Have they, to give them self-reliance, A form of Martian Christian Science? Or do they live in constant hope Of dispensations from some Pope? Are they pursued from womb to tomb By hideous prophesies of doom? Have they cathedral, church or chapel? Are they concerned with Adam's Apple? Have they immortal souls like us Or are they less presumptuous?" Do I Believe? -- Noel Coward

Can I just add, I'm starting to come across like sh1thead number one but honestly, perfectly reasonable bloke. I'm just trying to give the numbers. :( I don't understand how all these cars can go through reds without hitting a car coming from another direction? It doesn't seem plausible. These guys see red and then think 'cross your fingers sonny, pedal to the metal'? This must be urban myth? What are these people thinking as they ride the gauntlet.... I am king, I am immortal, I am a cowboy here is my gun. Look on me lesser mortals and weep at my mastery. I spit on you and your everyday rules. I strut with angels an... *SPLAT*. Is this conversation just about pedestrian crossings? I've been hit twice by cyclists walking over at pedestrian crossings and because I'm a nice guy I only gave the guy an additional kick the second time. ;-)

Numbers talk

...murdered today...young woman driving three kids to school...swerving to avoid clever cyclist...put car under lorry...cyclist says I'm in the right...dead mother says...

On a mathematical bent... If 45% of maths classes were satisfactory or worse, then 55% were better than satisfactory - they performed above expectations? If 35% of the classes were actually satisfactory, they you could argue that 90% of maths classes met or exceeded expectations? Not only is this story an example of naughty maths, but do we really need people manipulating the figures to make it appear that we're worse than we really are?

I can't quite work out what you're saying there Redone It seems to be that everything is bad - but what would your recommendation be? Are you saying put the money under the mattress?

So are the other cars stopping on green, or are you talking about just a fraction of a second here?

Dull as ditchwater as I try to be, there's always some data out there: This is a study of cycle accident causes in the US Although this study equates cycling through red lights with failing to give way at STOP signs, I think that it's still a fair reflection of the consequences of going through reds in the UK. In both cases there's both a requirement to stop, and an expectation from fellow road users that you will. In the study (across six states) cyclists jumping stop signals result in a staggering 23% of serious or fatal injuries, and just under 10% of all bicycle accidents. It's also interesting to note that although cyclists are most scared of other big road users making mistakes, it's in fact the cyclists themselves that are responsible for the majority of accidents through breaking highway codes and failing to take sensible precautions. By all accounts cocky gets you killed? ;-) (On another note, I seem to get the impression that there's a few people who actually seem to think this kind of thing, endangering both your own and others' lives, is cool?)

There's a place called Digital Revolution based in HK which will do mail order to the UK. I got most of my stuff from there at very competitive prices.

DPF rather proving Jasmine's point there I think? ;-) Mind you, it is rather ironic Jasmine that you'd taint the 90% of positive comments because of the 10% of unpleasant ones. It's rather like you're committing the very crime you're accusing others of? I like the ladies in Threshers very much. They had a nice line in Nobilo and Villa Maria Sauvignon Blancs plus a couple of mainstream central Italian reds like Montepulciano that you couldn't get elsewhere on LL. I never asked them to help me out, but they were charming and welcoming without being asked and that was good enough for me. (They did tip off home early occasionally which was a bit frustrating.)

As someone else mentioned, abrupt killing or removal of the tree can cause catstrophic damage as it'll change the water table under your houses. You may find that you've saved the wall and destroyed your house. You should also be aware that your insurance won't pay out if you're found guilty of illegal action. ;-)

Lol! :))

I've no doubt that gay people suffer discrimination, both small and large scale, non-violent and violent. I've also seen gay people discriminating against heteros on this forum by suggesting they'd like a gay bar to which heteros are not welcome - I think we'd agree that there's not a single hetero on this forum who would suggest that gays should be turned away from straight bars? I'm not sure about the validity of other 'groups' that suffer. We're a bit limited in terms of sexuality but I guess that Doggers and the S&M crowd have a pretty unfortunate time of it. Max Mosley's pecadillos weren't popular. They all have to hide themselves away and getting 'outed' is a humiliation. In order to be discriminated against as a group, you'd have to be an identifiable member of that group, and likely as not have a tribal agenda. In that sense then yes, I can think of thousands of 'groups' that suffer violent intimidation: schoolkids (for their school, for their fashion choices, for where they live, for what they study), football fans (for their teams), scientists (for their research) etc. etc. I can also think of groups whose name has become a by-word for 'dirty', 'rubbish' or 'very bad'. This includes the French ("Oops, pardon my French", "French-letter", "French kissing"), the Germans ("This house is jerry-built"), and the usual allegations against other minorities such as Gypsies. I'm not saying that gays aren't discriminated against, just that I'm finding it hard in a world crammed with discrimination and hatred to make them a special case. That gay people are happy to discriminate against other groups, include the aforementioned examples of anti-hetero and anti-working class, makes me even less sympathetic.

I see what you're saying James, but I may have failed to make my point well. I'm not saying the gay community doesn't have a hard time, and I sympathise with your concerns. I don't want you to feel I'm being homophobic. I'm not saying there aren't poor gay guys, or victims of attacks. However, in order for the gay community to claim discrimination (i.e. being singled out) then they have to be disproportionately represented in the disadvantaged groups you cover. - Are the gay community more or less likely to suffer violent crime than the community as a whole? - Is the proportion of gay guys in senior business roles larger or smaller than the proportion of gays in the greater community? - Does the gay community have higher or lower average earnings than the national average? - Is the gay community disproportionately represented in residential areas of need? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I have suspicions that in at least three of these examples the gay community is actually better off than the national average. If that is the case, then I'm not dismissing your concerns, but I do feel that limited resources would be better directed at those who are worse off than the gay community. If however, the gay community is suffering genuine disadvantage in these areas, then I'd be the first to leap to their support. BTW I'm not sure that homosexuality has always been oppressed, I understand it was considered the height of good taste by the Romans at least?

People who hark back to the past when things were better and hundreds died at Heysel, Bradford and Sheffield. When you could piss in the pocket of the guy in front of you and punch him in the face if he complained. ;-) Only teasing.

I find this whole gay oppression debate a bit of a non sequitor. I'm thinking that comparing the gay community to the black community is outrageous hyperbole. It's like Christiano Ronaldo comparing himself to Nelson Mandela. Gay people don't live in poverty stricken ghettos on the edge of society. There are no gay apartment blocks in North Peckham. There was no gay-trade across the Atlantic where only one third of the gays survived the journey. 75% of the murders in Britain this year have been black people, and they represent only 5% of the population. Apparently despite 10% of the population being gay, over 75% of the murders were not gay people. I'd need evidence that gay people are an oppressed faction comparatively before believing that this debate is anything more than self-indulgent. If anything gay people seem to be disproportionately wealthy and enfranchised. Where is the black Peter Mandelson? I don't want to diminish, but 75% of gays in schools experience bullying, well so do 90% of heteros. Kids will bully and go tribal over anything. So people call gay people rude names, I get called names for being a public schoolboy in advertising. I've no doubt that a crowd responded badly to this comic's announcement, but I'll bet he wouldn't have even got the first laughs if he was white. I don't understand how strangers know that you're gay? If you're being oppressed for parading your sexuality, have you considered that it's not anti-gay, but anti-narcissist? I'm sure there are gay-bashing occurences, but as the victim of a couple of assaults I can assure you that it happens to heteros as well. They're all bad. Have you been hospitalised for being gay James? I've been hospitalised for wearing a red scarf. Ridiculous isn't it?