Huguenot

What a thoroughly depressing read that was. Thoreau generously observed, "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them" He was probably too forgiving for how this frustration manifests itself in petty small minded resentment.

Steveo, you despise the world that I created? I didn't create this? You did. You're older than me.

The massive is valid, but not necessary.

"Work. There needs to be a LOT of us. If you think that's a lesser calling..." No, not really. Is that what nags you?

SJ, it was selective. Having said that, you got the roar of the collective. You are not sidelined here. The capacity of yourself and EP is not in question. I'm challenging whether you can make a difference or just go with the flow.

Steveo, yes, I made my point. I despise the world that the baby boomers have created. You and your kids need to make business.

Well in so many words, maybe your approach was about how she should learn about debt and responsibility, instead of what she might create out of ingenuity and capability?

I don't have any bankrolled dreams in this context, I've made cash as a worker, not as an owner to date. I lost money owning stuff. It's interesting how aggressive your response has been? I asked a question that we asked together with friends, and they wondered what UK people would say. The SJ thing is about conformity?

What is she due for her ingenuity? For her employment creation?

Yes, it's a taxation question. What should she be taxed? 60% to 80% of her income? What is her level of responsibility? What is the level of abuse she should receive for protecting her income? To what degree should she have her income redistributed?

Nah, it's not me. It was an interesting outcome of one of the spreadsheets of a client. I only ever get development fees - same as a salary. BUT within 3 years, their income dwarfs the wealth pattern of an average middle class. They become one of the 1%. Have they ripped off society?

A hypothetical... A person has the same education that everyone gets, and works hard to save a little cash, and then invests the whole lot (mortgage and pension) in creating an iPad app. I'm going to use 'she' for brevity. She has no specialist education in app creation, she was funded by the government to get an arts degree that so many people have. She paid for her own education in tech development and business competence. She spies a market opportunity for an App and plows everything she has into creating it. She employs a dozen people at market rates with appropriate benefits and perks (paid for out of profit). Many of them, except the most junior, have shares. The App is ?1, she sells 3,000,000 copies for a net income of ?2.1m in the first year. She paid ?1.5m in total in development costs, but every month she flirted with bankruptcy. All the risk was hers - her employees got paid, whilst she worried about finances and ate baked beans. Clearly, very soon, she's going to make a few quid. Enter the 'elite' zone. She took all the risks, sacrificed her future and security, on a project where only 1 in a 100 are successful. At what point does she become a rich bitch, sucking the nation dry?

'He spelt 51,109 words' ... Was that a competition or a prison sentence?? :D

If you think something has broken the rules of the forum then click on 'report this message' underneath the relevant post and it will go to the moderation team. I don't think Chase Dulwit has done anything wrong there though - expressed disgust quite strongly may be, but even though it questions the values and perspectives of the wine buyer, it's not actually a personal attack is it?

Simply the Best, Tina Turner Everyone's a Winner, Hot Chocolate Eye of the Tiger, Survivor

I'm sure you've got thick enough skin to deal with the fallout EP, but I'm guessing there may be relations pulled in who might be more sensitive, and then it all gets very upsetting. Quite the head scratcher. Given the racial homogeneity of that little corner of Ireland I'm guessing those opinions are unlikely to have much real world impact, and there's no demand for a timely response. Maybe enough room to build a little social capital first before embarking on a 'the Irish are the blacks of Europe' empathy drive?

It seems it's a legitimate business, but it seems shocking that they appear to be deliberately causing problems, and then charging customers to report it!

PeckhamRose, I think the Steve North quote speaks to the essential problem with this debate. Steve is projecting intent and motive upon Thatcher for everything that took place within her reign, in addition to ascribing responsibility for events over which she had no control. If what Steve said was true, then she would maybe deserve the level of vitriol aimed at her. The problem is that it isn't. Virtually nothing that Steve claims would stand up under scrutiny. I can't be bothered to Fisk Steve's quote, but you could start with the 'decimation of Northern towns' which was the consequence of the economic unviability of their industry, not because of Thatcher's venality. You could continue with completely bizarre statements like her being guilty of winning an election after the Falklands War - a patent misrepresentation of the motives behind the conflict in addition to a peculiar assertion that after conflicts parliamentarians should organize to lose elections. But anyway, it's all just a mess. The question I ask myself is why people choose to believe this stuff - people must know that much of this verbiage is intrinsically flawed, but deliberately overlook this fact to gorge them selves in hatred of a cartoon caricature.

This is, kind of, an example: Brilliant snippet from the Independent. Someone texted Arthur Scargill; " Margaret Thatcher, dead". Scargill replied; "Arthur scargill, alive" LOL Hardly 'brilliant' is it? Not really Laugh Out Loud. Mildly amusing, maybe? Not exactly guffaw inducing, unless you're one of those sweaty faced golf club idiots who prop up rural boozers cat-calling women on the way to the toilet. So what makes people describe this as 'brilliant'? People who think this makes them look cool. It's tragic.

A great deal of the motivation for the celebration seems to glory in the breaking of a taboo. It's clearly deeply unpleasant and offensive to revel in anyone's death - and doing something so nasty and small minded seems to give a lot of satisfaction to certain types of people. It's to be expected of pathetic 14 year old boys who want to be part of a playground gang, constantly seeking out the approval of the other kids. It's reflection of their desperate lack of self confidence and sense of value. It's a rather unbecoming trait in grown adults.

I can understand the getting off soon thing KK, but to deprive someone else of a seat because it's not convenient to squeeze past them is incredibly selfish.

I don't think trust would be my first concern. On a related note, if you're sporting $1000 of gear hanging off your ears, do you really think the grab and run guys outside ED station are going to ignore it?

Agree Quids - it wasn't 'pretty good' unless you like theatre. It wasn't a critique, nor did attempt to be fair. It was a stump speech for the disorganized left.

Well to be fair Atticus, we've had the Hillsborough discussion before, and yet you've devoted another thread to it. So it's a bit pots and kettles.

I think there's bit of confusion isn't there? t-e-d? I may have misunderstood, but it's just a loan isn't it? Yes, it's paid back through a levy on your electricity bill and can only be used on greening your house, but it's just a loan? The government seem to offer a few hundred quid subsidy at most, but if you're going to do major heating or insulation work it'll be a ?10,000 loan paid off over 25 years at around 7% to 8%. There's even early repayment fines. Some deal. HMG seem to be loan-sharking? You'd be better off in many cases simply extending your mortgage wouldn't you? Happy to hear that I'm wrong?