Lordship 516

BJ will never have feelings of shame - he is an amoral & shameless, self-indulgent thug ! The mistake that was made was rescuing him from that zip-line - should have been left hanging there as an example to all of his ilk.

That was the best news of the past two weeks. Gove obviously failed to get a commitment for a big job from Borisconi, so he decided with great principle to go it alone. This is the season for Brutus in both main parties. This will split their support & clear the way for May. Fox won't get enough support, so maybe it will come down to a contest between May & Crabb. Borisconi can go back to writing his fiction & Gove to do likewise for his mates Dacre & Murdoch.

The whole debacle has been mismanaged all round. JC is known to be principled & stubborn & is probably a bit dogmatic - he has spent his whole life fighting for his beliefs in an independent manner and almost always against the mainstream so what is happening now is just the norm for him & he is not fazed. John McDonnell is a clever organizer & Seumas Milne knows his way around the media so JC has an effective team around him. There is no point in trying to reason with these people now as the PLP adopted a scorched earth policy from the off and this caused everyone to adopt adversarial entrenched positions. There ought to be a more consensual way out of this but that evaporated once the PLP struck - JC is locked into a position that is further exacerbated by the presence of Seumas Milne & John McDonnell - both devious & uncompromising. If JC doesn't relent & resign, then the Labour Party as we know it will be torn asunder. This is Bliar's legacy & reaction to his manipulation of the party towards the right, disguised as a move to the centre. Mr Bliar not only misrepresented the facts in relation to Saddam having WMD but he also cynically misrepresented what the Labour Party stood for. Sir Christopher Meyer -?If we look at Iraq today it?s a failed state. If we look at Syria it?s a failed state. And a lot of this derives from the fact that on the basis of faulty intelligence the US and the UK went to war in 2003'. The same applies to the Labour Party failure - it all lies at Mr Bliar's door. He used New Labour to create New Tory - greatly admired by Gove, Osborne & Cameron who has used him as an adviser. He went too far to the right & now we have an adjustment that went too far to the left. Thank you Anthony Charles Lynton Bliar - let's see what Chilcott says about your performance.

Dilemma for these MPs - they had no real foresight or a thought out strategy beyond getting rid of JC - now they realize that a challenge will likely result in JC being re-elected. These people have only proved their greed & lack of practical planning. Outmaneuvered by JC, so who is qualified to run the party & the country - a bunch of ill organized MPs or the modest, principled man who has more talents than they realized ? I think a new leader would be good for the Labour party but not yet. What they have done is doomed to failure.

JoeLeg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lordship 516 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > JC is operating within the party democratic > > envelope - the PLP want him to consider what > they > > view as the 'bigger' picture representing the > > whole country. > > > > Let's try to address the issues. > > I might be misunderstanding you, but surely that > is the issue at stake here? That there's > essentially a battle line being drawn between > those who feel the will of party members is > sacrosanct, and those who feel that the ability of > the party to be elected supersedes it? > > And Louisa is right. Whatever this is, it needs to > be put to bed fast, one way or the other. I agree - this is the central issue and it could have been achieved with less rancour with a little reflection & patience. Instead a bunch of self-interested plotters decided to strike JC down like snakes and this is why we have the awful prospect of Her Majesty's opposition tearing the party asunder.

DaveR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "There is a hiatus in the labour party since Bliar > and this current squabble might just lance the > boil." > > On this point however I agree, although I would > put it differently. Blair recognised that the > Labour Party would not govern for as long as it > continued to identify as (i) a socialist party or > (ii) the party of organised labour - in essence > that it would have to ditch much of its history > and founding principles and re-position itself as > a European style socisl democratic party. He was > right, and won three general elections on the > strength of it. The 'current squabble' is very > much about whether the Labour Party wants to > re-embrace those founding principles (with an > added dash of post 1960s social radicalism) or > whether it wants to try and perform the > potentially impossible task of relaunching an > electable Blairite party (whilst still maintaining > that Blair himself is Satan, a war criminal, a > traitor etc.). Bliar debased the original project & twisted New Labour into something grotesque that the centre & left couldn't live with. This polarized the party into the factions that we now see coming to the surface. Blairite is the last thing the Labour Party needs. I happen to agree that JC ought to go but disagree with the timing & manner that the front bench adopted to make that happen. Now it is likely he will win again and their petulance will cost the country dear. Tories will have a field day under Borisconi/May/Fox/Crabb - all right wingers that will devastate the country. NHS, schools, welfare - watch out !

DaveR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "This is the trilemma of democracy - to whom is > your first loyalty & how to define what that > loyalty is. They will all claim first loyalty to > the country but then interpret that as per their > collective ideal of what that is." > > I don't want to be unduly harsh but this makes no > sense at all - literally. What are the three > choices or propositions implied by the word > 'trilemma', and what does it have to do with > democracy? Why squabble about use of a word ? country - party - policy... which do you give priority to ? JC is operating within the party democratic envelope - the PLP want him to consider what they view as the 'bigger' picture representing the whole country. Let's try to address the issues.

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lordship 516 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Maybe the disenchanted that resigned to try & > > embarrass JC should join the Liberal Democrats > - > > plenty of room there for them. > > That would be interesting. The Lib Dems could be > the official opposition and Labour a minor party > on the cross benches, smaller than the SNP. > > And the official opposition would then have a > policy of remaining in the EU! Wouldn't fancy their individual chances of being re-elected !

History teaches us that this is always the way - new generations always know better than their parents/grandparents and have to learn the hard way...

This is the trilemma of democracy - to whom is your first loyalty [party or country] & how to define what that loyalty is. They will all claim first loyalty to the country but then interpret that as per their collective ideal of what that is. There is a hiatus in the labour party since Bliar and this current squabble might just lance the boil. Who the winners & losers will be is yet to be decided. Maybe the disenchanted that resigned to try & embarrass JC should join the Liberal Democrats - plenty of room there for them.

JC has shown true grit & integrity - traits that is in short supply among politicians in this parliament. Labour under him fared well in by-elections but the PLP seem to want a cartoon character just like the Tories have. They are the ones who have whipped up all the negatives in the public arena. There is a process and they could have gone in that direction but instead they want JC to resign on their say so without recourse to the whole party membership. JC has shown that it is he that is in touch with ordinary members & they now have painted themselves into a corner.

In this respect, most decent people who were momentarily swayed by xenophobic feelings will reflect and the real racists will be left drooling in their pints. Most people in this country are of immigrant stock - Angles, Normans, Irish, Huguenots, Jewish, Africans, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern, Indians, Pakastani, South Asians.... - it goes back generations & the racist lot are just unhappy louts like Farage who have no other contribution to make. The whole country will settle, with Farage & his fellow travelers left on the margins whining about what could have been.

My parents were Irish - I could get a passport & residence just for the asking as can anyone in Northern Ireland also; grandparents French, some Scots blood etc, etc However, my attitude is simple - if any country doesn't want to admit me then I won't be bothered going there. What the racists fail to realize is that their actions will merely strengthen support for immigrants, and, though their actions are unacceptable & hurtful in the short term, they are just farting in the wind. It will pass & the country will be stronger, more united & better.

I think all those shadow ministers pulled the trigger at the wrong time - they had wanted to do this since the day JC was appointed. It would have been better to wait until the Tories were in the middle of their leadership selections. What has happened now is a distraction from the Tory confusion. Now they are having a problem agreeing on a candidate to challenge JC - this will strengthen JC's position and make it harder to replace him. If he wins this time around then he will be unassailable but it might lead to a split with the Bliarites finally running off to form their own party ?

miga Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lordship 516 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > miga Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > I think it was more a simile, or even just a > > > histrionic comparison. > > > > Thank you Miga for your accurate grammar .. I > > accede to the simile but not to the histrionic > > comparison. > > It wasn't really grammar either, maybe "literary > terms" is the right category. > If it was grammar I wanted to pick you up on, I'd > point out that the ellipsis is usually three dots > :-) You can always get a job as a proof reader... no problem!

DulwichFox Wrote: And your point is..? > For centuries this country has invaded / attacked > / Colonised other lands from the Crusades ... to > Iraq.. > We are no Saints..

Salsaboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anybody know when the plague of locusts are due to > arrive? > > Lighten up people. The buses are still running, > shops have food, the toilet still works. Remember > the blitz! We made it through that, we'll get > through this. The blitz was unavoidable & the fight was honourable. Brexit is avoidable & dishonourable. It not so great for many people who will lose their jobs & pensions..!

WorkingMummy, I know I cannot make up for the lowlife that abused & bullied you but I feel your distress and assure you that, although these neanderthals are visible & vocal, most UK people are not racist. Farage is a florid barrow boy with a loud turn of phrase and most of his associates will reject him and probably quite soon. Johnson is a megalomaniac, crazed to get power at any cost, personal life, friends - nothing matters other than getting power - he will also feel a cold breeze & also likely quite soon. I apologize for their crass behaviour & also assure you that you and others in your situation are always welcome anywhere in the UK. Big hug..!

Early election..? Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 there are only two ways to get an early General Election 1] Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 only a motion explicitly resolving "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government" is treated as a motion of no confidence which, if carried, triggers a general election. A government can lose a vote of no confidence by a majority of just over 50%, requiring it to resign. Parliament will be dissolved if no new government can be formed within 14 days of a no-confidence vote. 2] The Act also permits early dissolution if the House of Commons votes by a supermajority of two-thirds. The second option is unlikely to happen. The first will be unpalatable to the incumbent government so how viable is an early election..? Should these not occur, the election will take place on 7 May 2020. Alternatively they could repeal the Act entirely but what about the Lords & other legal challenges..?

This opinion is well worth a read for those that care..... https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2014/11/19/alexander-horne-and-richard-kelly-prerogative-powers-and-the-fixed-term-parliaments-act/

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have respect for people's opinion, but on this I > can no longer justify the decision that has been > made. Not only have we, the brexit supporters been > lied to in a big way. We have also overseen the > potential collapse of our political system as well > as upsetting the international community, many of > them close friends and allies. We have also > allowed a vacuum to develop in which some rather > distasteful opinions have emerged which are making > some people who are guests and great contributors > to our country feel unwelcome and deeply > troubled. > > Foxy and toffee, you have both been lied to on > this and that really isn't any exaggeration. We > need to respect the fact that some people have > been hit quite hard by this decision we have made > and it seems to me that we should now have a > period of calm reflection, in which some of us > hold our hands up, admit we have been wrong- and > somehow help to fix the mess we have unknowingly > unleashed on the population. > > Louisa. Respect, Louisa..!

I have a friend who is Irish..we were having a drink in a bar, chatting about post Brexit for UK & Ireland. Idiot comes up and says 'Off back home then?' with a silly grin on his face. However, my friend has the last laugh [actually laughed, like Irish people usually do] - he has an Irish passport and a UK passport so he can go & come wherever he wishes & whenever he wishes..HAH! I really learned a lesson from my friend - water off a ducks back, smile, have another glass & move on.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is what happens when you allow the right to > hijack any campaign which appeals to the heart as > well as the head. Hence my utter disdain towards > Corbyn for not seizing the ideological moment and > appealing to people's brain with some hard facts > said from the heart, especially Labour voters. > Instead, he half heartedly read from scripts he > barely knew, and had little to no belief in any of > the messages he was trying to convince people > with. The lack of passion allowed the less > informed people (including myself) to soak up the > heartstrings bollocks dished up in abundance by > Farage, Boris & Co. > > Louisa. Louisa, are you for turning? Most of your posts were reasonably genuine, if mistaken. I applaud you if you are now convinced you have erred - it is people like you we need to hear more from in the days to come.

Calsug Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I love the fact that people who are understandably > a bit worried about their future are being branded > "sore losers" and "whiners" this isn't a 5 a side > football match that people are complaining about > but the short to medium term health of the country > they live in > > Let's for a moment ignore the FTSE as yes it was a > bit frothy in the run up to the referendum on the > back of postive outlook to remain in the EU the > more worrying thing thing is that we are now being > downgraded by S&P and Moody's with a negative > outlook - these guys are not speculators or the > "fat cat bankers" they are the gauge for the > market > > I will whine about the result because we are now > entering into an almost certain and yet totally > avoidable recession due to a decent percentage of > the population having delusions of grandure about > the country they live in with a twist of > xenophobia chucked in for good measure - I won't > tar everyone with that brush but talk to Joe blogs > on the street as to why he is happy for him to > have "his country back" and that will be the gist > of his argument > > trillions of dollars have been wiped off the > stock market and yes the market may recover but in > the time being the decision that was made last > week will hurt the people who need support the > most part of those trillions are people's pensions > and savings > > Okay the bankers may leave and this is "great > news" as who needs "those greedy bastards" but > what about all the shops, restaurants and services > that were supported by them? I assure you > companies are looking to leave London mine > included and you can say good riddance to us if > you like but the snowball effect of companies > leaving is significant Well said Calsug..thank you ! This is only one case with many more to happen. Entirely avoidable.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lordship 516 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > By all means whinge - we all need to whinge > until > > we can be heard. But we also need to be > > constructive & productive so we can make a good > > case to stay. > > > We're not staying. There was a vote last Thursday. > It'll calm down eventually, but in the interim > there will be people whose lives will be turned > upside down. Says you, rahrahrah. There WAS a vote last Thursday which constituted an advisory based on the information that was available to the electorate at the time. Parliament can decide to reject it in the best interests of the country. There is a lot of water to go under many bridges so let's see what will transpire. My guess is that collective sense will prevail, the dust will settle, no trigger will actually be pulled or it may be pulled but the EU will facilitate some form of face saving & life will resume more or less as it was post Brexit but with a solution acceptable to both sides in the UK. Then we have to heal the rifts & live on.