Lordship 516

Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 there are only two ways to get an early General Election 1] Under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 only a motion explicitly resolving "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government" is treated as a motion of no confidence which, if carried, triggers a general election. A government can lose a vote of no confidence by a majority of just over 50%, requiring it to resign. Parliament will be dissolved if no new government can be formed within 14 days of a no-confidence vote. 2] The Act also permits early dissolution if the House of Commons votes by a supermajority of two-thirds. The second option is unlikely to happen. The first will be unpalatable to the incumbent government so how viable is an early election..? Should these not occur, the election will take place on 7 May 2020.

By all means whinge - we all need to whinge until we can be heard. But we also need to be constructive & productive so we can make a good case to stay.

Well worth reading https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-barber-tom-hickman-and-jeff-king-pulling-the-article-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

Hey..we all ought to be on the same side..Remainers & Leavers ...to get this resolved in the best interests of the future of the Uk & not sparking off each other & trying to gain little brownie points. We are currently in a mess and need a way forward without the histrionics. It needs a consensual, measured consideration...not backing some personality or other to be PM. For my money, I feel Cameron pulled the trigger on his resignation too quickly. He ought to have waited a little so he could have some space to think & consult widely before he threw his hands in the air & opted to go. Not really a great PM. Now we are faced with the prospect of Johnson - not a good prospect for the future.

miga Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think it was more a simile, or even just a > histrionic comparison. Thank you Miga for your accurate grammar .. I accede to the simile but not to the histrionic comparison. I think most people won't be so pedantic & understand that a lot of the world is not really in awe but catastrophically aghast.....

*Bob* Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lordship 516 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ...the same awe > > & shock as if an hydrogen bomb went off in > central > > London > > > Let's not get too silly, there's enough of that > around already. Apologies if you couldn't quite understand a metaphor...

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-barber-tom-hickman-and-jeff-king-pulling-the-article-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-barber-tom-hickman-and-jeff-king-pulling-the-article-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

Brussels has also emphatically ruled out informal talks on a possible trade deal before the UK triggers article 50. ?No notification, no negotiation,? one official said on Sunday. A diplomat added: ?If they treat their referendum as a non-event, we will also treat their referendum as a non-event.? Once the trigger is pulled, then you are on the way out. Europe is simply saying, 'Put up or shut up'

Toffee Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Look, the brexits won. Do you not realise how > you're coming across? Its like "how dare anyone > disagree with my point of view..." Get used to the > fact. No matter how many petitions are signed > nothing will change. Its not a knock out match like the last 16 in the Euros - this is about how the UK will exist for the next 50/100 years & maybe more. It needs review & mature contemplation & also another more informed plebiscite. The fact is a lot of people were mislead and this needs to be addressed in the best interests of all the population and not just to satisfy a mean bunch of laughing boys & spivs.....

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To be fair, the week before last, the FTSE dipped > on the back of Brexit fears, so it's not a good > benchmark for comparison. > > Too early to say for sure whether the current > apparent dip is of any particular significance. > The drop in GBP is more telling. Hang on to that thought Jeremy 'cos that one is coming up your rear end also..!

miga Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Not even the Leavers want Farage at the table, > he's been useful but his job is done. The same applies to Johnson ..............they have done enough damage...now they can pi** off..!

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The world is in awe? le pen, Trump and various > right wing Europeans is not the world. Most of the > world is thinking what the f*ck have they done. Not awe..aghast...amazed at the stupidity...gobsmacked... most normal people in US..China...South America...Africa...the same awe & shock as if an hydrogen bomb went off in central London...Trump is a dick - doesn't count for a hill of beans as they say in the good ole' south...

Sarkozy said: "When the people say ?No', we cannot say the people are wrong. We must ask why they said ?No'. The same applies to the Leavers - we must ask them why they voted to leave and try to address that. If they voted on the basis of wrong or fraudulent information then the vote must be suspect & subject to review.

Boris was a prot?g? of the 'Daily Telegraph' editor, Max Hastings. The walls around his desk in the rather ramshackle Brussels 'Telegraph' offices, on Square Marie Louise, were festooned with a series of long letters from Hastings. These letters were a detailed appraisal of Boris's writings. They challenged him on words and phrases, and advised him to avoid being colloquial, even at risk of being perceived as "pompous" at times. It was an extraordinary example of mentoring, entirely foreign to any writer's experience of journalism. The Hastings-Johnson connection went on for some 20 years as Boris continued as a 'Telegraph' columnist after being elected an MP. But these days, Hastings is less than a fan of Boris, who he insists is not prime minister material. "Most politicians are ambitious and ruthless, but Boris is a gold medal egomaniac," Hastings wrote in October 2012 just as Johnson's prime ministerial candidature was finally on the agenda. Hastings vowed to leave Britain if his old prot?g? became the Downing Street anchor tenant. Many observers now believe it's almost time Hastings started to consult those airline timetables.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty It is interesting that when Ireland voted 'NO' to the Lisbon treaty the first time around, the main reason was that no one understood the unreadable document & the Irish thought that there would be a renegotiated document but the Brussels mob rejected that notion [the Nice treaty had been renegotiated] and threatened Ireland with withdrawal of various supports & that fat man PM Cowen caved in and forced another referendum - the Irish were bullied. This UK referendum was to leave for more or less the same reason - a lot of people didn't understand the detail and the Leave campaigners created a lot of uncertainty that the Remainers made a hash of in not sufficiently clarifying their lies & hyperbole. All these Labour shadow ministers are blaming Corbyn but they all had mouths on them to speak & legs to get around canvassing but they also want a scapegoat and most have other agendas for their own careers. We need a national consensus and Johnson cannot provide that, neither is he a suitable character to send to negotiate as he has no credibility in Europe - he was there before and lied his way through his made-up reports etc. etc Do we really want this bluffer to represent this country..? aaaaagggghhhhhh....!

If you want to extend the argument for Johnson being in charge then we ought to press for Farage to be his number 2...who would want these two oiks in charge of anything..? Johnson failed in his big promise in regard to provision of housing for London & waltzed blithely away as if it were a thing of nothing...this is his style. The current fiasco reminds me of a dog chasing a car - when he catches up with it he doesn't know how to drive it & merely sniffs around it proudly wagging his tail for having caught up with it - Johnson, Gove, Farage & others - just a pack of ill-mannered mongrels.

kford Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > On the contrary, I want him to have to deal with > the clusterfuck he's helped create. If May gets > in, for example, the Brexiters will just say it's > her fault the country's wrecked. Yes, I want him to have to deal with the mess but only from the dunce's corner where he can remain in a clown's costume as purdah & where he can observe what decent people represent & what they can achieve. May, Osborne or anyone else would be preferable to this flawed lunatic who will only go on to worse depredation of the UK & elsewhere in order to live out a fantasy that he is Churchill re-incarnated. He has nothing to offer except an fantasy cartoon character of being a Churchillian character. He is obsessed with Churchill [ both were born in the US], wrote a book [The Churchill Factor: How One Man Made History], tries to speak like Churchill & now wants to foist his pantomime Churchill character into the political vacuum ably assisted by his hapless painted dame, that other disaffected fool, Mr Gove who almost ruined education in the UK. The whole world will guffaw loudly if Johnson is made PM and worse still we will suffer the experience for decades to come. Johnson has made history alright, but not in the manner he thought he might & we must all combine as a coalition to prevent him getting his oily wish lest he causes more mayhem - I wonder what Churchill would have thought of Johnson? - methinks he would have dismissed him with a flick of cigar ash and walked quickly away to do something more important such as building a brick wall to keep Johnson out. I am reminded of Churchill's comment about Lord Beresford ?He is one of those orators of whom it was well said: Before they get up, they do not know what they are going to say; when they are speaking, they do not know what they are saying; and when they have sat down, they do not know what they have said.? Johnson to a T - Best Johnson is never given the opportunity to speak for us..!

Whatever happens in the whole scenario, I really hope that this Boris Johnson clown never makes it to Prime Minister or any ministerial position as he has only distinguished himself by lying & cheating through all of his life with constant instances of gross disloyalty to his wives, his girlfriends, his friends, his party, the electorate. This disgraceful oily Eton character must be stopped in his tracks once & for all or we will all suffer the consequences for many years to come - awful person..!

Whatever happens in the whole scenario, I really hope that this Boris Johnson clown never makes it to Prime Minister or any ministerial position as he has only distinguished himself by lying & cheating through all of his life with constant instances of gross disloyalty to his wives, his friends, his party, the electorate. This disgraceful oily Eton character must be stopped in his tracks once & for all or we will all suffer the consequences for many years to come - awful person..!

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > LM Greece is far from perfect as a nation, and if > anything to me it proves the failings of the EU > and more especially the single currency. Nations > with completely different cultural, economic and > political constructs have inevitably failed to > work together and the consequences of the single > market are that its not the political classes who > suffer, but the ordinary working people! Greece > caused its own mess, but if it wasn't restricted > by the EU it would be able to deal with that mess > independently and possibly more successfully too. > > Louisa. Louisa - I would love to agree with you but you only quote what you want to believe, not the reality. Greece & Ireland fashioned their own economic demise. In Ireland's case they had a corrupt deal going on between Government figures, developers & the banks. However, Ireland accepted their fate, took corrective action and now they have the highest growth in Europe. The UK provided about ?7billion as a loan to Ireland - this was done out of self-interest as Ireland buys more from the UK than does China. In Greece few paid any taxes, VAT was not collected and the various governments borrowed & borrowed to pay the bills & welfare including pensions that Greeks believed was their right despite not contributing towards this benefit. They could have opted to go it alone but they needed EU money & in particular German money so of course there were tough conditions as would be for any borrower who had previously defaulted massively. Had they not been restricted by membership of the Euro, their mess would likely have been even worse with the IMF having to be called in with even more tough conditions being imposed. The Euro had nothing to do with either Ireland's or Greece's problems - but the Eurozone sorted out their problems, albeit with some tough medicine. Ireland buckled down, worked through it and will be out of the woods before 2020. Greece have yet to get to first base, now on their third rescue plan & not going too well.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > root Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > > So what you really want Louisa is to rewind the > > clocks of Europe back to the 1950s. In the > face > > of global superstates like India, China, the > US, > > etc, reduce Europe to a bunch of loose dinky > > insignificant democracies. > > Absolutely not root. What I want is for Europe to > return to democracy, one in which Greece isn't > threatened with economic sanctions and caught up > in mass unemployment. A Europe in which Democracy > is once again returned to the local rather than > centralised, where decisions can be made for the > interests of the many and not the few. No-one says > if the EU collapses we can't still trade with each > other. Everyone is talking about this market of > 500 million people, what about the other market of > 6 billion customers (eg the rest of the world?). > Calling us loose insignificant democracies is > missing the point entirely. > > Louisa. Louisa - wonderful idea but not at all practical. I can only quote China where I lived for many years recently. Try to export any metal item to China and you will see the result - no import, not even with duties on top. The Chinese only allow imports of what they want - some luxury goods [usually re-imported after having been manufactured in China] food as they don't grow enough rice even for their own consumption & so on. China regard the UK as a small country - they come here as tourists & to shop in Bond Street. Most of the Chinese students that we get here are from wealthy families and many have failed to gain entry to the Chinese third level colleges. China produces about 6-7 million graduates every year - about 50% of the world total and it is free but only 7% of students [the best] go forward after a brutal Gao Cao [A level] exam. India, South America and Africa are heading in similar directions - massive education programs & harnessing their natural resources for their own advantage. The ideas that Johnson, Farage, Gove & their fellow travellers are hanging on to has long gone - the time of the empire where the UK could dictate her own terms has gone. This is the world that we live in and must face for the future. We need to be a part of a wider coalition of friendly nations - why go looking for such alliances with the prospect of this taking not years but generations to perfect ? We have the EU and we ought to put our energies towards perfecting what we already have.

Jules-and-Boo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "Lets vote remain and lead within Europe by > example & press for reform that will be in the > greater good for Europe as a whole". > > yes - well, unfortunately, there is a large sway > of other countries to influence and win over, if > we were to push for reform. They would all have to > want that to happen. Our views, ideals, values > etc. are all diverse. > > In some areas, we are struggling to influence - > look at transportation of live animals. Other > countries in EU frankly do not care and this > reform fails. We have more power to influence our > OWN reform and thereby influence Europe. Nope - this will never happen. Vote leave & the UK will be on the sidelines forever & all their influence forgotten as an historic anomoly. The UK was at the forefront of the transportation of live animals & did little until very recently to reform that - it is nonsense to say that other countries don't care; they do care but what is needed is stronger compliance measures in certain countries and inside the EU we can achieve this. If we stay outside we will be told where to get off..! The very strength of being in the EU is that diversity of opinion - we have to be strong in our convictions & not retire because we meet disagreement. Each thousand mile journey starts with a small step [LaoTzi 6th C BC - not Confucius or Mao Tze Tung as often quoted]. This campaign & referendun has already put the other partners in the EU on notice that reform has to be a main part of the agenda and the UK must use its awakening to spread change across all the spectrum of administration in the EU. Madame Merkel is not a stupid person and she is already under domestic pressure for reform. The UK can now press the way forward during our Presidency of the EU next year and will find many willing partners. Stay outside and we will be regarded as a grumpy old crusty uncle that can only see negatives & disapproval of anything & everything.

rendelharris Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > uncleglen Wrote: > > > Given that EU law would prevent the > > re-nationalisation of the railways, which, > given > > the finite nature of fossil fuels and the > > congestion on the roads, (not to mention the > > pollution generated which the EU fine us for > every > > year,) is the only sensible way forward in > > transportation- then EU law is a stupid ass and > we > > should get out now. > > That's simply not true, I'm afraid, much as Farage > loves to say it. EU law requires non-restrictive > competitive access to freight routes, it in no way > proscribes nationalisation of railways. The First > EU rail directive states: "Member States may > exclude from the scope of this Directive railway > undertakings whose activity is limited to the > provision of solely urban, suburban or regional > services." It's not the EU that stands in the way > of railway renationalisation, it's the interests > of private capital (I'm looking at you, Branson) > and the conservative economic policies of > successive governments. Look up the SNCF, with > government backing (and it must be admitted a > certain amount of cunning Gallic footwork worthy > of Serge Blanco) they've retained predominant > government control over the French rail network. > It's a lack of UK government will and supine > bowing to private capital that have landed our > railways in the mess they're in today, not EU > regulation. We have the good Lady Thatcher to thank for all this privatization, driven by ideologues such as Hayek, his arch monetarist acolyte Milton Friedman & the poor boy made good Sir Alan Walters. This was good for business and remedied the economy in the short term but the UK has been suffering the harsh medicine of this narrow philosophy since then & Norman Tebbit ensured that the employment laws were put in place that allows employers free rein to hire & fire almost at will and only pay as little as they can get away with - examples the Amazon sweatshop & Sports Direct zero hours contracts. The EU provided some protection against to worst excesses of their policies and we ought to celebrate that. The one good thing they did was prevent Nigel Lawson pushing the UK into the Euro but that doesn't mean that the Pound is wonderful - it is weak & volatile & is manipulated by the large financial blocks that even the Government cannot control. Boris Johnson appears to hark back to the Churchill era [even appears to emulate the great man] where the Empire was dominant - these people are regressive little Britaneers who only understand control & don't really understand co-operation & inclusiveness. Lets vote remain and lead within Europe by example & press for reform that will be in the greater good for Europe as a whole. Don't forget - China & India are in the wings & flexing all kinds of muscles - the UK on its own will get eaten alive; within the EU the UK can harness our experience gained over hundreds of years to influence & participate in a huge economic block of over 500 million people.

A huge tragedy. Our prayers for her and our sympathy for her family & colleagues.