wagtap

from experience, there is nothing to be gained by trying to train kids to do things before they are cognisant enough to have an idea of what they're doing...you're just wasting your time. Same goes for writing, etc and all the other academic things peeps try to get their kids to engage with when they're way too young...just enjoy the nappies whilst you can! :)

hi there - have PM'd you about this...please check your email.

I've never trotted out any of those lines, actually Bob, you might have...but you're missing the point. Not altogether surprising...

Aah, mornin Hugues - you and I would have a great time down the pub. Thankyou for your stats - I coul deasily produce some counter-figures...if I had nothing better to do I'd list many reasons why Speed sCameras are a poor solution to traffic management, but let me point out their major weakness: they do not detect bad driving, they merely measure speed. It is not speed that is dangerous, it is inappropriate speed. I was knocked off my motorbike recently by some old fella who was probably distracted by too many road signs and was probably using his peripheral vision to look out for traffic as he pulled out of a sideroad straight into my path, writing off my motorbike and sending me rolling down the road into oncoming traffic. His speed - probably less than 20 mph. No camera was interested. Cameras are too simple. And before you suggest otherwise (you do have a tendency to be presumptuous), I was under the 30mph speed limit. And as for the pedestrians crossing at the 'no entry' who are, as you suggest, only looking out for buses - why are they not looking out for cyclists, who are also allowed to use that junction? Perhaps that's why so many cyclists and motorcyclists get knocked off - because of the muppets out there (in cars, taxis, vans, lorries, and on foot) who are only looking out for big red buses and using their 'peripheral vision' at junctions or when crossing the road. Dear me. It is those muppets who kill people - not me. I have my eyes peeled (as most cyclists and motorcyclists will tell you) for anyone and everything who may jump out in front, swerve, pull a sudden u-turn or slam their brakes on to look into a shop window or pull out of nowhere without looking. It's no wonder we on two wheels don't have all the time in the world to take in the excessive amount of pavement-cluttering signage. If people more attention to what's happening on the road rather than soaking up the endless signage, your graph lines would plummet.

Rosie - I don't care about it being 'Buses only'. I care about being ripped off by councils who already rake in far too much council tax and deliver too little due to massive incompetence in spending public money...one of these rip-offs is this dodgy junction - I have stood there and watched the surveillance camera working its evil - very slick little operation. As for "those gormless plebs wandering around" (oblivious pedestrians) as you so nicely put it - I came to a halt the other day as a truly gormless smother pushed her buggy-bound child into the street without looking for traffic beforehand because she was on her mobile phone. Poor child...idiot mother. This is BASIC stuff - there is no defending the growing inability to cross a road properly. Jeez. Goodnight.

OK, guys, time to lose the semantics, we'll be here forever. Point is, loads of people get 'done' by this junction - therefore it's clearly not well designed. So, note to council: stop happily sitting back raking in the cash and sort it out. Be of service to the public you are supposed to be serving...

Traffic cops have always been and always will be better than cameras...and if driving is generally so bad, then we need to adapt the Driving Lessons Handbook accordingly and provide better training to drivers before they take their tests. Interesting article on Top Gear recently about the stringent training of new drivers in Iceland - making them much better prepared for the roads than their counterparts in Britain...

Aah Hugeunot, me ol' presumptious pal The 'No Entry' sign in question (sorry to deflate your balloon here) has nothing to do with going the wrong way down a one-way street or any such like. It is a 'No Entry' except for buses - ie, bus only. No pedestrian lives at risk with this one, I'm happy to say. Thanks for your stats - I'm sure I can produce something similar. How's about the fact that speed cameras have made no difference to road mortality rates - still lurking around the 3500 mark, unchanged for 10 yrs...? I'm amazed at how many people on here are happy to have their lives monitored by the witless in government, local or national. CCTV has exploded nationwide under new Labour (old Soviets) - and people keep voting for them. Some CCTV is useful - granted. However, much like the anti-terrorist laws used for bin-spying, they're the thin end of wedge that those who are 'more equal than others' are all to happy to abuse... By the way - interesting issue you have raised about pedestrians not looking the right way - one reason one doesn't have oodles of time to soak up endless road signage is that one is looking out for the many pedestrians who are wandering around, fairly aimlessly, plugged into their MP3 players or mobile phones, completely oblivious to what's going on on the roads as they cross...often hooded, uterly unobservant.

Aah Hugeunot, me ol' presumptious pal The 'No Entry' sign in question (sorry to deflate your balloon here) has nothing to do with going the wrong way down a one-way street or any such like. It is a 'No Entry' except for buses - ie, bus only. No pedestrian lives at risk with this one, I'm happy to say. Thanks for your stats - I'm sure I can produce something similar. How's about the fact that speed cameras have made no difference to road mortality rates - still lurking around the 3500 mark, unchanged for 10 yrs...? I'm amazed at how many people on here are happy to have their lives monitored by the witless in government, local or national. CCTV has exploded nationwide under new Labour (old Soviets) - and people keep voting for them. Some CCTV is useful - granted. However, much like the anti-terrorist laws used for bin-spying, they're the thin end of wedge that those who are 'more equal than others' are all to happy to abuse...

*Bob* - thanks, mate, for those facetious remarks. If you can't see how petty fines are linked to bigger problems and curtailment of perspective, freedoms and tolerance, then there's no point continuing...please feel 'free' to vote your way into a Police State. Surveillance camera fines for petty infringments are the thin end of a fat, ugly wedge. Surely you can see that? Meanwhile, I would happily trade (and frequently do) the meaningless luxuries of comfy Western living for the ability to live without continued persecution of whatever kind...

Thanks *Bob*. My grandfather fought in a war for the upkeep of freedom, not the petty application of rule and regulation, monitored by the overbearing state, facilitated by the Orwellian imposition of cameras all over the place, endlessly justified by the same old excuse - "?f you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear". You just live with the fear of doing something 'wrong'. That's not a very good place to be - in a society where the making of mistakes is summarily punished. And who defines what 'wrong' is? A govt that represents less than half the country? A local council that's barely elected at all? Manned by people with little or no experience of real life. I regularly go to West Africa, where there are far less rules and regs. Generally, if it isn't harming anyone, nobody cares. They have other things to worry about. The sense of freedom is quite incredible. They are genuinely shocked when they hear about the pettiness of life in the UK at the moment.

Is revenue generation a deterrent (in response to LuvPeckham)? It may be: I could fine you one thousand pound for being late to work. It might work, but you would hold me in contempt for being utterly disproportionate. Criminals get more lenient treatment than this.

Well it's a tangent, but the concept of any road measures should be to be effective where necessary. Speed limits can often be surpassed without any danger - they are a broad application of something that may only be specific in one area. Driver judgement counts. Doing 30 past an emptying school may be inappropriately fast, but is still legal. Doing 50 past that school at 0400 would not be a different matter. Discretion. Where it is deemed essential to be effective then measures must be just that: effective. Cameras leave you with options and are far too 1984 for a democracy that takes itself seriously. Chicanes, for example, along with the much-maligned speed humps, mini-roundabouts at T-junctions, all require an actual reduction in speed, not a theoretical one. They do not require endless numbers of road signs to be read (a bad distraction) and you cannot choose to do 60 through them. There may be more ideas out there - all welcome. Common sense and discretion. Which is why black&white application of rule is impossible.

Sean - money-spinning cameras aren't the solution. They don't PREVENT things, they merely rake in money from them. In fact, it is in the council's interest for these petty infringements to take place in order to make money out of them. I would not put speed cameras on Colyton Road. They are a witless solution to any problem. I would introduce proper measures that actually have an effect on traffic, rather than measures that make that effect elective. As per the no entry sign - if you're the sort of person who never makes a mistake and lives life in rule-obedient perfection, then well done you. Rules are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. If you're happy with all this surveillance and spying and petty-fine mongering, then you and I should inhabit very different philosophies. And you're welcome to yours as it's of no interest to me. As for the bigger picture - it's about time Britain refocussed on what that might be, as it doesn't have a clue at present.

...with a cashpoint on it.