wagtap

from experience, there is nothing to be gained by trying to train kids to do things before they are cognisant enough to have an idea of what they're doing...you're just wasting your time. Same goes for writing, etc and all the other academic things peeps try to get their kids to engage with when they're way too young...just enjoy the nappies whilst you can! :)

hi there - have PM'd you about this...please check your email.

I've never trotted out any of those lines, actually Bob, you might have...but you're missing the point. Not altogether surprising...

Aah, mornin Hugues - you and I would have a great time down the pub. Thankyou for your stats - I coul deasily produce some counter-figures...if I had nothing better to do I'd list many reasons why Speed sCameras are a poor solution to traffic management, but let me point out their major weakness: they do not detect bad driving, they merely measure speed. It is not speed that is dangerous, it is inappropriate speed. I was knocked off my motorbike recently by some old fella who was probably distracted by too many road signs and was probably using his peripheral vision to look out for traffic as he pulled out of a sideroad straight into my path, writing off my motorbike and sending me rolling down the road into oncoming traffic. His speed - probably less than 20 mph. No camera was interested. Cameras are too simple. And before you suggest otherwise (you do have a tendency to be presumptuous), I was under the 30mph speed limit. And as for the pedestrians crossing at the 'no entry' who are, as you suggest, only looking out for buses - why are they not looking out for cyclists, who are also allowed to use that junction? Perhaps that's why so many cyclists and motorcyclists get knocked off - because of the muppets out there (in cars, taxis, vans, lorries, and on foot) who are only looking out for big red buses and using their 'peripheral vision' at junctions or when crossing the road. Dear me. It is those muppets who kill people - not me. I have my eyes peeled (as most cyclists and motorcyclists will tell you) for anyone and everything who may jump out in front, swerve, pull a sudden u-turn or slam their brakes on to look into a shop window or pull out of nowhere without looking. It's no wonder we on two wheels don't have all the time in the world to take in the excessive amount of pavement-cluttering signage. If people more attention to what's happening on the road rather than soaking up the endless signage, your graph lines would plummet.

Rosie - I don't care about it being 'Buses only'. I care about being ripped off by councils who already rake in far too much council tax and deliver too little due to massive incompetence in spending public money...one of these rip-offs is this dodgy junction - I have stood there and watched the surveillance camera working its evil - very slick little operation. As for "those gormless plebs wandering around" (oblivious pedestrians) as you so nicely put it - I came to a halt the other day as a truly gormless smother pushed her buggy-bound child into the street without looking for traffic beforehand because she was on her mobile phone. Poor child...idiot mother. This is BASIC stuff - there is no defending the growing inability to cross a road properly. Jeez. Goodnight.

OK, guys, time to lose the semantics, we'll be here forever. Point is, loads of people get 'done' by this junction - therefore it's clearly not well designed. So, note to council: stop happily sitting back raking in the cash and sort it out. Be of service to the public you are supposed to be serving...

Traffic cops have always been and always will be better than cameras...and if driving is generally so bad, then we need to adapt the Driving Lessons Handbook accordingly and provide better training to drivers before they take their tests. Interesting article on Top Gear recently about the stringent training of new drivers in Iceland - making them much better prepared for the roads than their counterparts in Britain...

Aah Hugeunot, me ol' presumptious pal The 'No Entry' sign in question (sorry to deflate your balloon here) has nothing to do with going the wrong way down a one-way street or any such like. It is a 'No Entry' except for buses - ie, bus only. No pedestrian lives at risk with this one, I'm happy to say. Thanks for your stats - I'm sure I can produce something similar. How's about the fact that speed cameras have made no difference to road mortality rates - still lurking around the 3500 mark, unchanged for 10 yrs...? I'm amazed at how many people on here are happy to have their lives monitored by the witless in government, local or national. CCTV has exploded nationwide under new Labour (old Soviets) - and people keep voting for them. Some CCTV is useful - granted. However, much like the anti-terrorist laws used for bin-spying, they're the thin end of wedge that those who are 'more equal than others' are all to happy to abuse... By the way - interesting issue you have raised about pedestrians not looking the right way - one reason one doesn't have oodles of time to soak up endless road signage is that one is looking out for the many pedestrians who are wandering around, fairly aimlessly, plugged into their MP3 players or mobile phones, completely oblivious to what's going on on the roads as they cross...often hooded, uterly unobservant.

Aah Hugeunot, me ol' presumptious pal The 'No Entry' sign in question (sorry to deflate your balloon here) has nothing to do with going the wrong way down a one-way street or any such like. It is a 'No Entry' except for buses - ie, bus only. No pedestrian lives at risk with this one, I'm happy to say. Thanks for your stats - I'm sure I can produce something similar. How's about the fact that speed cameras have made no difference to road mortality rates - still lurking around the 3500 mark, unchanged for 10 yrs...? I'm amazed at how many people on here are happy to have their lives monitored by the witless in government, local or national. CCTV has exploded nationwide under new Labour (old Soviets) - and people keep voting for them. Some CCTV is useful - granted. However, much like the anti-terrorist laws used for bin-spying, they're the thin end of wedge that those who are 'more equal than others' are all to happy to abuse...

*Bob* - thanks, mate, for those facetious remarks. If you can't see how petty fines are linked to bigger problems and curtailment of perspective, freedoms and tolerance, then there's no point continuing...please feel 'free' to vote your way into a Police State. Surveillance camera fines for petty infringments are the thin end of a fat, ugly wedge. Surely you can see that? Meanwhile, I would happily trade (and frequently do) the meaningless luxuries of comfy Western living for the ability to live without continued persecution of whatever kind...

Thanks *Bob*. My grandfather fought in a war for the upkeep of freedom, not the petty application of rule and regulation, monitored by the overbearing state, facilitated by the Orwellian imposition of cameras all over the place, endlessly justified by the same old excuse - "?f you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear". You just live with the fear of doing something 'wrong'. That's not a very good place to be - in a society where the making of mistakes is summarily punished. And who defines what 'wrong' is? A govt that represents less than half the country? A local council that's barely elected at all? Manned by people with little or no experience of real life. I regularly go to West Africa, where there are far less rules and regs. Generally, if it isn't harming anyone, nobody cares. They have other things to worry about. The sense of freedom is quite incredible. They are genuinely shocked when they hear about the pettiness of life in the UK at the moment.

Is revenue generation a deterrent (in response to LuvPeckham)? It may be: I could fine you one thousand pound for being late to work. It might work, but you would hold me in contempt for being utterly disproportionate. Criminals get more lenient treatment than this.

Well it's a tangent, but the concept of any road measures should be to be effective where necessary. Speed limits can often be surpassed without any danger - they are a broad application of something that may only be specific in one area. Driver judgement counts. Doing 30 past an emptying school may be inappropriately fast, but is still legal. Doing 50 past that school at 0400 would not be a different matter. Discretion. Where it is deemed essential to be effective then measures must be just that: effective. Cameras leave you with options and are far too 1984 for a democracy that takes itself seriously. Chicanes, for example, along with the much-maligned speed humps, mini-roundabouts at T-junctions, all require an actual reduction in speed, not a theoretical one. They do not require endless numbers of road signs to be read (a bad distraction) and you cannot choose to do 60 through them. There may be more ideas out there - all welcome. Common sense and discretion. Which is why black&white application of rule is impossible.

Sean - money-spinning cameras aren't the solution. They don't PREVENT things, they merely rake in money from them. In fact, it is in the council's interest for these petty infringements to take place in order to make money out of them. I would not put speed cameras on Colyton Road. They are a witless solution to any problem. I would introduce proper measures that actually have an effect on traffic, rather than measures that make that effect elective. As per the no entry sign - if you're the sort of person who never makes a mistake and lives life in rule-obedient perfection, then well done you. Rules are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. If you're happy with all this surveillance and spying and petty-fine mongering, then you and I should inhabit very different philosophies. And you're welcome to yours as it's of no interest to me. As for the bigger picture - it's about time Britain refocussed on what that might be, as it doesn't have a clue at present.

...with a cashpoint on it.

I'm glad you're tongue was in cheek. There is nothing potentially serious about driving through that junction. It's just discriminating against private transport. What is potentially dangerous is constantly having to check every signpost and every inch of PAVEMENT for an indication of something you might get fined for, INSTEAD of paying attention to the ultimately more important task of keeping one's eyes on the road and watching out for pedestrians, other road users etc. Any competent driver will tell you there are far too many distractions around already without having to decipher unnecessary wallet-busters that are there for nothing more than spurious revenue raising for the inefficient treasury dept at the local council... This junction makes thousands of poinds every week for Southwark council. If it is transgressed that often there is clearly something wrong with it. If they are so keen to stop motorsits driving through it, then they should come up with something sensible and effective. But then that wouldn't rake in loads of cash, would it? And, if you must know, I went through on my motorbike through force of habit as I cycle through that junction all the time - which is 'allowed'. A very simple, totally harmless MISTAKE. A sensible society wouldn't be bothered by it.

RosieH - that's a very simplistic view, and of course, a 'technically' correct one. However, who really wants to live in a country where any technical infringement will cost you? Petty petty petty. Most of these motoring contraventions are so harmless that no one notices (apart from the geek with the CCTV camera who is spying on the public). I've just been penalised 120quid for going through that 'no entry' spot at the bottom of rye lane. A totally harmless MISTAKE. And, it was nothing more than that - I don't go around doing things like that deliberately. Had a copper been standing there, it would have been a quick chat "Do you realise what you've just done, sir?" etc..."mind how you go". Was it seriously a violation of such magnitude as to incur a 120pound fine? No. Certainly not. We preach tolerance in this country. Except for anyone on wheels. Then, ooh, you'd better watch out. One inch out of line and you'll be hammered for it. No room for error anymore. Well, that's very sad...and very communist/fascist. Ridiculous. This is not what my Grandfather fought for, nor what my Great Uncle died for. In the meantime, what is the council doing about the seriously dangerous driving that goes on on my road - Colyton Road - where there a loads of kids, dogs, parklovers and pensioners milling about to use Peckham Rye Park, whilst motorists and truckers drive by at speed of up to 60mph? Precisely nothing. A mistake here will kill someone. Yet, no fines, no sign of any concern from the council or the Police, no enforcement of the 20mph speed limit. This isn't a poxy no entry sign we're talking about. It's all out of kilter. There's probaly no money in it...

I've been done there as well - it's totally pathetic. I thought we were trying to stop cars polluting the atmosphere instead of making them drive extra miles diverting them around a junction. Anyway, there are technical issues here: Are the signs aligned properly? Is their distance apart too much? There are no road markings directing traffic to the left, just an obscured arrow amongst all the other rubbish on the pavement (way too much signage on pavements these days) Examine closely the details on your PCN - any error invalidates the ticket. Check timings, pictures, codes, has it been signed etc. I shall be in the Adjudicators Office on Monday fighting one. (What a waste of time over something so harmless - oh the joys of having a meaningless existence in modern London - the curtain-twitchers' CCTV paradise) Any advice welcomed if I've missed something that'll stop the licensed thievery a Southwark Council...

3 hobby bobbies catching cyclists...good thing they've had extensive training. I drive, use a motorbike and cycle, and I have no problem whatsoever with cyclists using the pavement at appropriate times. People on here say "if you can't use the road, don't cycle", well - HELLLOOOO - have you seen how poor the standard of driving is by the brain-dead minority who get in their cars and switch off their minds, with NO observation, NO awareness and NO concern for anything but getting to the traffic lights a few seconds sooner? Drivers of cars are getting worse by the year and I have total sympathy for those who justifiably feel threatened by the incredibly POOR drivers around them. Sort out the drivers before whingeing about harmless cyclists. And so what if they jump red lights? We all waste far too much time waiting for Red (bent) Ken's lights to change at junctions...if a cyclist runs a light, it's his/her responsibility - pretty bloody harmless. Surely there must be something bigger to moan about????? PS - of course there are anti-social muppets everywhere, whether on bikes, in cars, on foot. And yes, we'd all be happier without them...