I heard the news today, oh boy..

[SeanMacGabhann]

Seems to me that about the only difference in both your arguments stems from an early misunderstanding and that you actually agree on all the key points. . Which i also agree with but have not joined in on for fear of arthritis setting in by using a phone keypad to type this

[Jah Lush]

Hmmm...Turkey illegally invaded Cyprus in 1973. I haven't seem them pull out yet and they show no signs of doing so. Shouldn't part of the process of Turkey joining the European Union be to pull out of Cyprus to appease the Greeks.

[downsouth]

Like I said a complicated history. You've just promoted one side of it. When the republic of greece was formed many turks and greeks were expelled to the other side of the new border. Attrocities were conducted by both sides. When Turkey went in it was because it had the interests of the ethnic/cultural turks. It set up a defence border when the Greek military junta attempted a coup following internecine attacks between the communities. in other words turkey did not attack.

Both sides however were culpable but unfortunatley in the UK we all sing from the same hymn sheet.

The irony however is that the Turkish Cypriots are somewhat like the Kurds in that they do not wish to be ruled by the Greeks - yet in this instance it is wrong... So, why should the withdraw if it will lead to more ethnic cleansing - hasn't there been enough already?

[fish]

downsouth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Like I said a complicated history. You've just

> promoted one side of it. When the republic of

> greece was formed many turks and greeks were

> expelled to the other side of the new border.

> Attrocities were conducted by both sides. When

> Turkey went in it was because it had the interests

> of the ethnic/cultural turks. It set up a defence

> border when the Greek military junta attempted a

> coup following internecine attacks between the

> communities. in other words turkey did not attack.

>

>

> Both sides however were culpable but unfortunatley

> in the UK we all sing from the same hymn sheet.

>

> The irony however is that the Turkish Cypriots are

> somewhat like the Kurds in that they do not wish

> to be ruled by the Greeks - yet in this instance

> it is wrong... So, why should the withdraw if it

> will lead to more ethnic cleansing - hasn't there

> been enough already?

Cyprus was ruled by the Ottoman Turks, from 1571-1878, then Britain annexed the island after the First World War. The Greek Cypriots of Cyprus have, always, strived for ENOSIS - union with Greece - and, in the 1950's a terrorist group - EOKA - fought with their colonial masters to gain independence. In 1960, Cyprus was declared independent and became a republic, with the Greeks and Turks sharing power - until 1963, when the ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots began.

Britain, Greece and Turkey were the guarantor powers of Cyprus and had the right to intervene if the need arose. In 1974,

the Greek junta decided to over-throw President Makarios and unite Cyprus with Greece. The UN has been in Cyprus since 1963 and the Turkish Cypriots continue to be discriminated against, as they have been for well over fifty years. They voted YES in a referendum to unite the island - the Greek Cypriots voted No and were accepted into the European Union. To date, the Turkish Cypriots continue to be discriminated against and, since 1963, Turkey still waits to join the EU.

[fish]

Harry Scott Gibbons' 'The Genocide Files' is a very informative book - which should be read by those who feel the need to comment on the Cyprus problem, without checking their facts or the history.

[downsouth]

Fish - I don't disagree with what you say but it's not as easy as saying 'the Ottomans ruled for 300 years' ergo it was a Turkish country, it wasn't. Empires as re formed by ruling over the dispossed but it can never last - even Rome toppled. I'm sure you know that the Ottomans weren't the best colonial masters (Armenia, Cyprus to name a few massacres) and had built up a boiling cauldron's worth of animosity on the island. So once again, it aint that simple. It's not turks are bad greeks good or the other way round but instead aint this planet *hit, we all **** up sometimes, but we've all got to share it?

I am optimistic about the North's prospects provided Sarkozy and the Austrians don't get their way - which is looking less likely with admission of the new Europe brigade.

[fish]

Well, the British weren't exactly good colonial masters themselves - didn't they inherit most of their empire from the Ottomans? Whatever the rights and wrongs of world history, the Turkish Cypriots have been let down very badly by Europe and the world. It is an absolute disgrace that in 2007, they should be treated so appallingly. Then again, the civil war in Bosnia wasn't that long ago. So much for equality? Some people would say it is a muslim thing - but "I could not possibly comment".

[Brendan]

I don?t really want to get involved in this but just want to comment the following. As someone who has visited both Greece and Turkey, as I?m sure many others have. It is glaringly noticeable how similar their cultures really are. Except for that one all important factor, religion.

[fish]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don?t really want to get involved in this but

> just want to comment the following. As someone who

> has visited both Greece and Turkey, as I?m sure

> many others have. It is glaringly noticeable how

> similar their cultures really are. Except for that

> one all important factor, religion.

Which seems to be the root of all trouble. And yet, Ataturk - the founder of modern Turkey - based the constitution of the Republic of Turkey on secularism. How he must be turning in his grave, now?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Mockney Piers said: ..."we separated church and state some time ago I believe" Sorry to disabuse you of this notion but CofE is still the established church. Not claiming that's right, but is the position.

PS. superb picture of Ataturk in hairdressers in Old Kent Road

[fish]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mockney Piers said: ..."we separated church and

> state some time ago I believe" Sorry to disabuse

> you of this notion but CofE is still the

> established church. Not claiming that's right, but

> is the position.

>

> PS. superb picture of Ataturk in hairdressers in

> Old Kent Road

Was his picture in a female/male or unisex hairdressers? I say this because the new President's wife covers her hair, due to her Islamic beliefs, and such things were banned by Ataturk - especially in government buildings - but does this mean she is banned from living in the Presidential residence? Does anyone know? Oh, the irony of it all.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Sorry - it was a barber shop (that still doesn't make me a bloke!)

[fish]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry - it was a barber shop (that still doesn't

> make me a bloke!)

Thank you.

[downsouth]

Unbelievably so. Cypriots first - religious afetrwards and the funny thing is, for Cyprus at any rate, neither side are terribly devout.

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don?t really want to get involved in this but

> just want to comment the following. As someone who

> has visited both Greece and Turkey, as I?m sure

> many others have. It is glaringly noticeable how

> similar their cultures really are. Except for that

> one all important factor, religion.

[mockney piers]

There really are very few examples of wars where religion was the primary causal factor.

At a pinch the first crusade and the explosion of conquest at the birth of Islam.

Setting aside the usual conquest/empire/resource wars of the past (*ahem* honest), in the post war period we had lots of post colonial conflicts throught the distorting lens of the cold war.

For the most part though it's nationalism, coupled with uncertainty, fear and extremists and/or nasty politicians using the expediency of fear to their own nefarious ends, generally to shore up their local power base.

Ooh, now we have a REALLY long list...

This was a very informative read on two notorious cases of recent times

The Key to my Neighbour's House

[fish]

Certainly true of the Turkish Cypriots - muslims - but the Church has always tried to influence the politics of the Greek Cypriots, which is a shame as the two communities share the same culture and are distinct from the mainland Greeks and Turks. The European Parliament missed a very good opportunity and the Cyprus problem could have been resolved - had both communities been accepted into their exclusive club - not just those who made no concessions and refused re-unification. And they say that the EEC is not a Christian Club? Will there ever be a time when all people will be equal and free - from oppression, proverty and war? We can only live in hope........

[fish]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There really are very few examples of wars where

> religion was the primary causal factor.

> At a pinch the first crusade and the explosion of

> conquest at the birth of Islam.

>

> Setting aside the usual conquest/empire/resource

> wars of the past (*ahem* honest), in the post war

> period we had lots of post colonial conflicts

> throught the distorting lens of the cold war.

>

> For the most part though it's nationalism, coupled

> with uncertainty, fear and extremists and/or nasty

> politicians using the expediency of fear to their

> own nefarious ends, generally to shore up their

> local power base.

> Ooh, now we have a REALLY long list...

>

> This was a very informative read on two notorious

> cases of recent times

> The Key to my Neighbour's House

Who would have thought that such atrocities could have taken place on European soil? It beggars belief that the whole world can stand by and do nothing - and intervene where they should, yet stick their beaks where they shouldn't! And what

about that old tyrant Mughabe? When will the world and those that govern, actually do the right thing? Why did millions die, in both world wars and other conflicts? We have learnt nothing! Then again, those at the top who make the decisions are not the ones who are sent to do the dirty work!

[fish]

Found an interesting site www.embargoed.org - about the embargoes enflicted on the Turkish Cypriots - certainly raised my eyebrows.

[mockney piers]

Forget the on/off saga of Brown's bottle, in the really important news the makers of an x-wing rocket had a launch with mixed results.

[Brendan]

I?m not surprised. The X-Wing was designed primarily for use in little or no atmosphere with no gravity. Launching it using rockets without the wings in the locked position was lunacy.

[mockney piers]

Indeed, typical rebel alliance. In trying to keep everyone happy by producing their own patent free version of the Incom craft, they not only did it under a PFI deal, they got the wookies to make the wings, the ewoks to make the weapon systems and the bl00dy French to make the engines.

I believe they then got connex to coordinate the attacks on the death star; how they managed to defeat the empire I'll never know, even with the use of the force (though now they have to call it the service, force was deemed to be too aggressive sounding)

[Ant]

I'd pay to see a film like the one you've just described, Mockers. Actual money. Probably using the right currency too.

[Brendan]

Well they probably would not have had a chance if it hadn?t been for the long running dispute between the bosses and unions of the Empire?s Civil service over the use of private contractors in the Death Star?s construction.

[mockney piers]

It was a classic case of making up for weak policies and a lack of ideas among the Sith party.

Deflect public attention away with an expedient war against a largely toothless enemy and build a white elephant that is 20 times more large and powerful than was necessary; go hugely over budget and get embroiled in disputes with the unwisely chosen Firrerrian contractors and their shoddy working practices (not to mention endless kashykkian coffee breaks) who only got the job thanks to some dodgy bungs sent the way of the corrupt civil service.

The money would have been far better spent bribing the races who joined the alliance mostly out of spite as they lost access to government contracts and saw their health provision slashed; bolstering the traditional fleet and making sure that the stormtroopers' armour wasn't next to useless.

But then it isn't as glamorous and sexy as a big metal moon that blows planets up. Someone should really have explained hubris to Palpatine, the pesky kids will win every time if you let em.

[Brendan]

Same Architect do you think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Millennium_Dome_%28zakgollop%29_version.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DeathStar2.jpg