Muhammad Ali has died.

[LondonMix]

I can only go by the fact that at the time Frazier said he accepted the apology and that he wanted to give Ali a hug.

Ali actually apologised to Frazier's son the night of their last fight saying he didn't mean a word of what he said in promoting the fight. He didn't apologise directly which always bothered Frazier.

Their relationship was a very complicated one- for years Frazier's personal voice message celebrated the fact his blows were responsible for Ali's Parkinson. I'm sure both had unresolved feelings for a long time.

In the end though Ali was one of the few to attend Frazier's private funeral in 2011 so by then at least the Frazier family appeared to have moved on and Ali certainly had. He eugilised him greatly in the press.

[red devil]

According to that Wiki link Ali went to Frazier's funeral which tends to suggest that his family had forgiven Ali. If other people still think taht episode taints his legacy that's up to them. For me he was the greatest sportsman who also transcended sport. Not only was he a positive role model for black kids, he was also a role model for white kids, everybody wanted to be Muhammad Ali...

[LondonMix]

I agree red devil. Having a great legacy isn't about having made no mistakes in your life. He made plenty- speak to his 3 ex wives!

He grew as a human being over the years, publicly acknowledged his mistakes and apologised for them, devoted himself to humanitarian work in addition to being a huge proponent in the civil rights movement, a world class boxer and one of the most dynamic and charismatic sports personalities in the 20th century.

That the majority of this thread has harped on his feud with Joe Frazier really feels myopic and petty to me.

[Jah Lush]

LondonMix Wrote:

>

> That the majority of this thread has harped on his

> feud with Joe Frazier really feels myopic and

> petty to me.

This.

Can we please accentuate the positive. Ali was a great man. Someone I loved and had the greatest of respect for. One of my heroes. He transcended sport. One of my biggest regrets is that when he made a surprise visit to my school in Tulse Hill in 1974 I missed him because I'd bunked off. RIP champ.

[Otta]

LondonMix Wrote:

>

> That the majority of this thread has harped on his

> feud with Joe Frazier really feels myopic and

> petty to me.

I'd argue that I just made a point and you're the one that dragged it on. And the fact you use the word myopic is ironic.

Frazier said he accepted the apology, but then some evidence suggests he never really was able to let it go. That's his problem not Ali's, but the apology isn't really the issue, the issue is all the stuff he said in the first place which cased death threats to Frazier and his family. That's pretty bloody big in my book.

Yes Ali was a wonderful boxer, and yes he was a great talker and personality, I never said he wasn't. But all this looking at your celebrity heroes through rose tinted glasses pisses me off.

It's like all the people that ignore the fact their musical heroes were sleeping with teenage girls back in the day, whilst at the same time going on about how terrible that footballer was for sleeping with a teenage girl (it was, I'm not suggesting otherwise). But it's pure hypocrisy. Just because you liked someone doesn't mean they should get a pass for everything.

Anyway, I'll bow out now.

[LondonMix]

Otta, I don't think there is anything hypocritical or rose tinted about celebrating someone like Ali just because they did some things that they have apologized for. Comparing the Ali-Frazier situation to looking past pederasty is insane.

After 4 posts about the issue, I came in to correct factually incorrect statements that people made about what happened. It could have easily ended there but didn't....

Anyway, I'm glad the thread is moving on.

[Otta]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Comparing the Ali-Frazier situation to looking past pederasty is insane.

>

Indeed, had I actually done that (which I didn't) it would be silly. I've not compared the two things like for like, I am talking about people's willingness to forget things when it happens to be someone they looked up to.

> Anyway, I'm glad the thread is moving on.

Bit as always, only after you've had the last word right?

[Jah Lush]

[Otta]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's funny I was thinking wasn't he the boxer who

> performed singing in my home town many years ago.

> It appears he was. He must have done a tour of

> Ireland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-31428195

There's great video footage in that link.

[Otta]

And I like this piece.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36452615

[Jah Lush]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > It's funny I was thinking wasn't he the boxer

> who

> > performed singing in my home town many years

> ago.

> > It appears he was. He must have done a tour of

> > Ireland.

>

>

>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-3142

> 8195

>

> There's great video footage in that link.

Fecking marvellous.

[Jah Lush]

Actually, now I come to think of it I'd already left Tulse Hill School when this happened. I'd just started working at what was then IPC Newspapers and specifically I worked for the Sunday People and The Sporting Life at that time. I was lucky enough to go and see the Rumble in the Jungle live at the cinema at Marble Arch and Ali came to visit my old school after he'd won back the world title against Foreman and made a visit to Brixton. A lot of the kids that lived there went to my school. He was a massive hero to all of us. In the picture is my old school friend Tony Sibbleys sparring with Muhammad after he'd made a speech. He'd asked for the biggest, toughest kid to get up and spar with him. Tony was around 6ft 4ins and a lovely bloke. Sadly, I lost touch with him after I left.

https://greatwen.com/2012/01/17/muhammed-ali-in-tulse-hill-1974/

[LondonMix]

Haha! I need the last word? Right, let's agree to disagree.

The links posted are really interesting.

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Comparing the Ali-Frazier situation to looking

> past pederasty is insane.

> >

>

> Indeed, had I actually done that (which I didn't)

> it would be silly. I've not compared the two

> things like for like, I am talking about people's

> willingness to forget things when it happens to be

> someone they looked up to.

>

>

> > Anyway, I'm glad the thread is moving on.

>

>

> Bit as always, only after you've had the last word

> right?

[Jah Lush]

That's you again trying to have the last word is it LondonMix? FFS can we please move on?

[Otta]

To be fair to LM there was no actual further argument in that post, and agreeing to disagree seems like a good choice.

I enjoyed rewatching "The Greatest" on BBC last night, and think it's a well balanced film. Unfortunately they haven't made it available on iplayer. Hopefully they will... I'm not 100% sure, but it had the feel of a BBC film.

[Otta]

Or at least it felt like I was rewatching it, there was some very recent stuff in there like interviews with David Haye, but most of it was stuff I'd seen before in Ali films.

[Elphinstone's Army]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Elphinstone's Army Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Many years ago I had a 45 rpm of Cassius Clay,

> > singing 'Stand by Me' which I really loved, b

> side

> > was 'The legend of Cassius Clay', - "This is

> the

> > legend of Cassius Clay, the most beautiful

> fighter

> > in the world today"

> >

> > Does anyone else remember it?

> >

> > I also remember Ali on Parkinson, and his

> > 'bluebirds fly with bluebirds' speech, and

> always

> > the quick quip.

> >

> > And with the torch at the Olympics.

> >

> > Rest in Peace, Champ

>

>

>

hello Otta, thank you for this : I realise I could have looked it up/googled/youtubed, but my posting was spontaneous.

I am impressed that you did this, you are my hero, thank you, Jenny x x

[Elphinstone's Army]

steveo Wrote:

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> Hung like a bee

hello steveo, I will try to be gentle with you as you are young and foolish. You cannot have escaped the media coverage of this man, and must have absorbed at least a modicum of his influence on the world of sport, politics, entertainment, what a powerful presence he was. To be diminished by a puerile remark was unworthy and hope you feel well and truly admonished embarrassed and ultimately ashamed. A complex man, granted, and not necessarily a 'nice' man but one who made us all think and consider, the white man, the black man, he was a mirror to our feelings, prejudices, racial experience, and sterling entertainment whilst taking Michael Parkinson apart. He was close to Prince, they had a good rapport. We forgave him many things, for the fortitude and charisma he afforded, and sad that he has left us, a mighty presence in our midst, a bright light extinguished.

[LondonMix]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36461015

Amazing story on the BBC about his personal relationship with one fan for 30 years who who rate to from she was a little girl until he died.

[Alan Medic]

Elphinstone's Army Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> steveo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Hung like a bee

>

> hello steveo, I will try to be gentle with you as

> you are young and foolish.

Young?

[steveo]

No fool like an old fool Al

[Elphinstone's Army]

steveo Wrote:

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> No fool like an old fool Al

so rude, and out of context anyway.

[Alan Medic]

What do you think he meant?

[camberwell70]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What do you think he meant?

Crummy pun

[Otta]

Bloody hell.