Farage resigns

[????]

I voted remain. The fact you think otherwise Just illustrates the inflexibility of your binary, simplistic world view. My point is that if people hadn't dismissed the concerns of people about immigration as 'racist' and engaged with them and let a discussion develop then my feel is the outcome would have been different but it was closed down by the 'bigots' of the left on the grounds of bigotry, ironically.

[Otta]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> "Sanctimony" and "specifically" by

> the way, and self-righteous has a hyphen; if

> you're going to have a stab at the big words do

> try to get them right.

Right there is where you lost the crowd and came over like an arse.

[????]

I just get bored of the inflexible, sanctimonious, morally certain, righteousness of large sections of the left. Nearly as bad as the bigotry of the right. Proper thinking people with open minds aren't certain about very much at all.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Whilst no one can know what is in another person's heart - I do think Farage is probably quite racist. Whilst I'm sure he'd condemn the loud punchy, out there type of racists (too crass) - That poster, the talking about immigrants bringing crime and disease, complaints about people on the tube talking in foreign languages - you don't have to read too hard between the lines. Sure, it's racism of the polite, banal, guarded type, that's not at all uncommon (especially amongst people of his generation and older). In someways it's a far more insidious.

This is the thing, when people say that it's a 'small minority of racists', I am not so sure that's correct. I think racism is actually incredibly pervasive, just subtle.

[rendelharris]

???? Wrote:

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> I voted remain. The fact you think otherwise Just

> illustrates the inflexibility of your binary,

> simplistic world view. My point is that if people

> hadn't dismissed the concerns of people about

> immigration as 'racist' and engaged with them and

> let a discussion develop then my feel is the

> outcome would have been different but it was

> closed down by the 'bigots' of the left on the

> grounds of bigotry, ironically.

You see, that's rather revealing: nowhere did I say I thought you voted for Brexit, and in fact I know you didn't as you've mentioned that you voted Remain several times on various threads. But you've created a scenario in your head that I assume you voted Brexit, so you can then say that shows how closed minded I am.

[rendelharris]

Otta Wrote:

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> Right there is where you lost the crowd and came

> over like an arse.

Well, I wasn't arguing for a crowd but against one person who thinks I'm an arse anyway, so I'll try not to lose too much sleep over it.

[Jeremy]

???? Wrote:

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> I don't like his politics or campaigning but ...

> I'm not sure being anti-European immigration technically counts as racism.

Same here, as much as I dislike him, I don't find his position inherently racist (although some campaign material might be). Foolish, wrong, and divisive, but not necessarily racist. Of course we all know that plenty of people voted out for racist or xenophobic reasons (consciously or unconsciously), but it would be foolish to label half the country as small-minded bigots.

[rendelharris]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I don't like his politics or campaigning but

> ...

> > I'm not sure being anti-European immigration

> technically counts as racism.

>

> Same here, as much as I dislike him, I don't find

> his position inherently racist (although some

> campaign material might be). Foolish, wrong, and

> divisive, but not necessarily racist. Of course we

> all know that plenty of people voted out for

> racist or xenophobic reasons (consciously or

> unconsciously), but it would be foolish to label

> half the country as small-minded bigots.

Quoted in the Daily Telegraph of all places (so not some "middleclass liberal journal"):

Phillips asks: ?In Ukip-land there would be no law against discrimination on the grounds of nationality. Would there be a law against discrimination on the grounds or race or colour??

?No,? Nigel Farage responds.

Full article here, if you're interested, which makes a pretty convincing case that Farage is a racist:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11467713/No-dogs.-No-blacks.-No-Irish-is-now-Ukip-policy.html

[Jenny1]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Whilst no one can know what is in another persons

> heart - I do think Farage is probably quite

> racist. Whilst I'm sure he'd condemn the loud

> punchy, out there type of racists - That poster,

> the talking about immigrants bringing crime and

> disease, complaints about people on the tube

> talking in foreign languages - you don't have to

> read too hard between the lines.

>

> Sure, it's racist in quite a polite, banal,

> subtle, guarded manner - The acceptable face of

> racism. It's that 1970's, casual, almost

> instinctive, everyday racism, which is not at all

> uncommon (especially amongst people of his

> generation and older. In someways it's far more

> insidious.

>

> This is the thing, when people say that it's a

> 'small minority of racists', I am not so sure

> that's correct. I think racism is actually

> incredibly pervasive, it's just not that shouty,

> out there type which everyone can comfortably

> condemn because it's so crass.

I agree with this rahrahrah. I remember those attitudes very well from the 1970s. And I think Farage embodies them.

My view would be that the emotions that drive these ideas are fear and insecurity. Where they originated for Farage personally I couldn't say. But they carry more traction with a wider public when economic conditions are tougher. So it seems natural they're now coming to the surface in a time of austerity, in the same way as they did in the bad old days of the three-day-week. There's a kind of turning inwards, and lashing outwards, that happens at such times.

As many others have pointed out it's the economic crash of 2008 that set the scene for the dramas playing out today. Without that Farage would have remained a lone, and largely unheeded, voice in the wilderness. But it's chilling to think that far worse people have risen to power in similar circumstances.

[Jah Lush]

I think my friend's wife hit the nail on the head when she described Farage: - "He's like a bloke who gets in the lift, farts, and gets out at the next floor."

[miga]

I have no idea if Farage is a racist - I don't see how anyone can be certain either way. He is a populist, though, and did appeal to xenophobic impulses to get votes, I don't think that's controversial.

In the olden days, it is my understanding, UKIP had something of an academic anti-EU position, with libertarian guiding principles. There was an LSE academic named Sked who was the top dog. There is nothing philosophical or academic about the party anymore - it's an anti-immigration party, with the indefensible "faceless bureaucrats" shtick bolted on for legitimacy.

[rendelharris]

miga Wrote:

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> I have no idea if Farage is a racist - I don't see

> how anyone can be certain either way. He is a

> populist, though, and did appeal to xenophobic

> impulses to get votes, I don't think that's

> controversial.

>

> In the olden days, it is my understanding, UKIP

> had something of an academic anti-EU position,

> with libertarian guiding principles. There was an

> LSE academic named Sked who was the top dog. There

> is nothing philosophical or academic about the

> party anymore - it's an anti-immigration party,

> with the indefensible "faceless bureaucrats"

> shtick bolted on for legitimacy.

Yes, Sked (a former Liberal candidate) formed the party as a single-issue anti-Maastricht (sp?) party but was forced out by Farage and others who decided he was too intellectual. After he'd left he said that UKIP had been taken over by far-right and racist elements.

[miga]

Loz Wrote:

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> Green Goose Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The Commission, which is the Executive ie makes

> all the decisions ( headed by Junker) is

> unelected.

>

> Only if you consider the Prime Minister and the

> cabinet unelected. The commission is comprised of

> 1 person from each country, appointed by each

> elected national government.

>

> Since you have no idea how the EU works, GG,

> here's some unbiased reading for you...

>

> https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims

> -brussels-bureaucrats/

>

> "The Commission is perhaps the most visible EU

> institution, but it is not necessarily the most

> powerful and is certainly not the government of

> Europe."

I haven't seen a return on any of these factual rebuttals of the "faceless bureaucrats" and "unelected dictators" shtick. Anywhere. Yet people hold onto their beliefs.

What I take away from this, and from the referendum, is that there is a large section of the population who are mentally incapable of processing simple information, but are very certain of their beliefs.

[Jeremy]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Full article here, if you're interested

Arguments either way... I don't think a laissez-faire approach to employment law is conclusive evidence of racism, but yes I agree it does sound very dodgy and undesirable.

[rendelharris]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Full article here, if you're interested

>

> Arguments either way... I don't think a

> laissez-faire approach to employment law is

> conclusive evidence of racism, but yes I agree it

> does sound very dodgy and undesirable.

You're right of course, but I think it at very least shows an "I'm not racist but I don't care if other people are" attitude.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Whether he is racist or not however, I do think he is odious. That 'facepalm' speech he made the other day in the European parliament was pathetic in the true sense of the word. It was his moment, the culmination of years of campaigning and whether you agree with him or not (I don't), it should have been a proud, victorious moment for him. Instead of being magnanimous, of making the most of it, he insulted everyone and came across as mean, petty and deeply insecure.

[miga]

In some sense - who cares? He was a marginal figure, at his peak his party managed 12% of the popular vote, disappeared after the election, re-appeared for the referendum, but no one serious wanted anything to do with him, so he had to front his own Leave campaign and was shunted out of any theoretical negotiating team. More bark than bite, thank goodness.

As Louisa said - his only real chance is to join some breakaway Cons faction.

[rendelharris]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Whether he is racist or not however, I do think he

> is odious. That 'facepalm' speech he made the

> other day in the European parliament was pathetic

> in the true sense of the word. It was his moment,

> the culmination of years of campaigning and

> whether you agree with him or not (I don't), it

> should have been a proud, victorious moment for

> him. Instead of being magnanimous, of making the

> most of it, he insulted everyone and came across

> as mean, petty and deeply insecure.

http://i.imgur.com/VBp1vuF.jpg?1

[Otta]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Right there is where you lost the crowd and

> came

> > over like an arse.

>

> Well, I wasn't arguing for a crowd but against one

> person who thinks I'm an arse anyway, so I'll try

> not to lose too much sleep over it.

On a public forum.

It's just a real pet hate of mine when people pick at a person's spelling or grammar in order to try to dismiss what they are actually saying.

And you seem a decent person, so just play the ball not the man as the saying goes :-)

[rendelharris]

Otta Wrote:

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> It's just a real pet hate of mine when people pick

> at a person's spelling or grammar in order to try

> to dismiss what they are actually saying.

>

> And you seem a decent person, so just play the

> ball not the man as the saying goes :-)

Well, fair point - I wouldn't usually do it, in fact I haven't to anyone else on this forum as far as I recall, but ???? replied to my post with "Oh such sanctomy - yes teacher" - having a bit of a dig at an argument we had on another thread about today's teacher's strike, so I couldn't resist the bait.

[steveo]

Does shitbag have a hyphen?

[Jules-and-Boo]

Whether you agree with Farage's views or not, it's hard to deny he achieved his goal.

[JoeLeg]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> Whether you agree with Farage's views or not, it's

> hard to deny he achieved his goal.

The jury is out on whether he achieved it or not. He may frequently pop up to blast the government if he feels they haven't gone far enough in breaking with Europe or dealing with immigration. And to be honest I doubt anything they do will be good enough for him. So no, I don't think he'll ever feel he's achieved his real, true goals.

[Otta]

I think his goal is actually to turn the whole country in to The Last of the Summer Wine, and he hasn't achieved that, thank God.

[red devil]

I dunno, I think Jeremy Corbyn would make a good Compo...