PCN - Dog Kennel Hill : Bus Lane

[Guest]

So I just received a PCN for going in the bus lane on Dog Kennel Hill. It's the section just before you turn left to go to Sainsburys.

I've been doing this for years and I know alot of others do this too. I've never had a PCN before and assume this is a recent thing.

Has anyone else received one and have they disputed this?

Without using the bus lane to turn left, the alternative is to turn from the right lane or move to the left lane just before the traffic lights. I've seen both scenarios played out and it always causes confusion

[Dee Dee]

This bus lane has always been confusing as not having a time you can or cant use it I assume

its 24 hours. However like you I use it to turn left before the arrow,sometimes following other

drivers doing the same thing so why is it only now that a PCN has been issued!. Thankyou for letting us

know, I for one will certainly be avoiding doing it again and I wish you luck with your appeal.

[spider69]

Perhaps Cllr Barber could tell us when a traffic camera was put in or has it always been there?

Cannot see a traffic person standing there with a hand held machine clocking tickets.

[Hawley]

Sounds insane, how are you supposed to turn left into Sainsbury's if there is a bus (or buses) in the bus lane, without using the bus lane yourself?

Have also been using that lane to turn left for years. Thanks for the warning.

[uncleglen]

That is a dodgy place, as is the left turn at the next set of lights up DK Hill. If you wait until you get to the dashed line, which you are supposed to do- other vehicles will undertake you and you can have trouble getting over to the left

However- if all the undertakers get tickets then everyone will have to wait for the dashed line won't they....and more money for Southwark's coffers...

[Dun]

They have been issuing PCNs there for a while but sporadically. A friend got one 2 years ago. Since then I always go in the right lane until I get to the broken lines that indicate I can move into the left lane. Unfortunately most drivers stay in the left lane preventing people in the right lane from moving over.

[Growlybear]

It's always been quite clear that you can't go in the left hand lane until just before the turn. If you are turning into Sainsbury's you need to move from the right hand lane once the bus lane has ended. But as Dun said above, many drivers move into the left lane far too soon, which prevents people who are in the correct lane from changing lanes easily.

[Siduhe]

I've always thought it was clear from the road markings that you can't cross the unbroken white line to move into the left lane until close to the lights where it changes into a dashed line.

That said, I've also found that cars who've gone up the left hand lane are generally pretty good about letting people in to turn into DKH/Sainsbo's. You do need to keep a close watch out for cyclists who are going straight on though.

[Jeremy]

Yep... you're supposed to change lane shortly before the turning, when the bus lane ends and the solid line turns into a dashed one. It annoys me when I'm trying to do the right thing, and some cheeky bastard nips up the bus lane!

[kford]

I'm sure it's marked as 'At Any Time'. There isn't a camera there, so must've been from a bus or a spy car.

[Lowlander]

It's very clear where the bus lane ends.

That said, it's frequently ignored by a lot of drivers. As my old teacher said, just because everyone else is jumping off a bridge, doesn't mean that it's safe to do so...

[teddyboy23]

The thing is you come down dkh and there's a bus in front of you in a bus lane if the traffic lights are red or about to change the bus will cut in front of you and use your lane if the lights on your lane are about to change back the bus will go back into the bus lane through the lights every bus coming down the hill does it some at the last minute They should be ticketed for careless or reckless driving . I mean the lights just before the bridge

[peckham_ryu]

Hello OP. It's worth seeing what the experts on the forums at PePiPoo.com have to help you

For example, this is one of the things you might find helpful (pasted from one of their forums):

The guidelines for enforcement of bus lanes in London (and elsewhere) state that the operator should observe a vehicle travelling along a bus lane for at least 20 metres before he issues a Penalty Charge Notice. We hear of many instances where vehicles receive a penalty charge notice when they have clearly not travelled along a bus lane for 20 meters. For example simply cutting off the end of a bus lane or not able to avoid the first couple of metres or swinging in and out when a car in front suddenly stops. Councils are aware of this guideline but quite often ignore it. If you have received a PCN in these circumstances you should immediately write to the local council and point out that they did not operate within the guidelines.

Edited to add: also take a look at buslanes.com

[macutd]

I have just got a PCN with a picture of me on my scooter at the top of Dog Kennel Hill.

My 50 cc 14 year old moped has trouble getting up to 20mph so i often move into the bus lane to avoid cars passing very close or cars building up behind me.

I am now worried that i will have more PNCs to come at ?65 each!!!

[Passiflora]

kford, you are right, there's no camera. The OP must have had a bus behind or in front of them when they turned into the small section going into Sainsburys and that bus has captured them.

The same at the top of dog kennel opposite the school.

It's been going on at lots of turn ins for ages and anyone driving around now should know that.

[peckham_ryu]

macutd Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i often move into the bus lane to avoid cars passing very close or cars building up behind me.

You have my sympathy here, and a suggestion for an appeal approach:

Even on a bike which has no trouble getting to 20mph, you get 'bullied' by cars coming up behind you and passing too close, because the drivers intend to speed (often in excess of 30mph). Riding in the bus lane is sometimes necessary for your own safety.

There are two reasons that cars speed here:

1. The 20mph speed limit is not enforced;

2. Regular users of this road know that if turning from Grove Hill Road, you don't have long between the lights turning green at that junction to the lights turning red at Sainsbury's. Every day you will see people 'racing' the lights in order to make progress.

The road is therefore dangerous for motorcyclists who intend to abide by the speed limit. On a small, lightweight machine especially, maintaining stability on an often windy hill is enough to concentrate on, without cars rushing past and potentially unbalancing you. The council must accept some responsibility for this dangerous situation, because they set up the speed limit but do not enforce it. To enforce the bus lane but not the speed limit is perverse.

Anyway that's how I'd play it. If you decide to appeal, feel free to PM me if you would like a supporting letter saying how dangerous this stretch is for motorcyclists.

[Guest]

I agree that you could take the view it is clear because there is a dotted line to allow you to come into the left lane. But it's not clear in terms of signage.

I think if you look at page 131 (figure 15-1) in chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual, it shows how there should be a sign to signify the bus lane has started and another to show the bus lane has ended. There is no sign to show the bus lane has ended and I think this is part of the confusion.

Some people turn left from the right lane as they think the entire lane is a bus lane. Based on the government's guidelines, there should be 2 more signs. Sign 964 to show the bus lane has ended and sign 1077 to show that you can turn left but cannot go straight ahead.

I think this also applies to the intersection further ahead where another person got a PCN

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223943/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

15.15 Where a bus lane is interrupted to enable vehicles to use the left hand lane before turning left at a side road junction, a road marking to diagram 1050, varied to indicate a left turn, should be provided (see para 17.8 in Chapter 5). This may be accompanied by a sign to diagram 877 as shown in figure 15-1. The legend ?Except buses? on this sign should be varied to ?Bus lane? to make it clear that other vehicles using the bus lane (i.e. cycles and, where permitted, taxis) may continue to use the left hand lane.

[macutd]

thanks for your support peckham_ryu i have appealed but will let you know how I get on.

[Ruskin]

Well whether there's a mounted camera there or not, the line's there stating it's a bus lane and it irritates me when drivers hop over the line 30yds from the feeder arrow then undertake me sitting in the right-hand lane, patiently indicating left - and who then refuse to give way when I want to move over as I'm supposed to.

And then you bleat about a PCN when you thought you'd got away with it. We all know there's little room to get over left but when the law says don't do it (whether you think its a crap law, or not) - don't do it.

[James Barber]

I thought it was pretty clear where non buses could use the bus lane to turn left.

[kford]

The signage is pretty clear and alway has been. Whether it's 'technically' correct is another thing.

As an occasional motorcyclist, however, I wish we could use it too, especially on the downhill section. The brick flowerbeds on the inside aren't very bike friendly.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's perfectly clear that if you're turning left, you have to wait until you've passed the bus lane before moving across. People whizzing up the inside in order to undertake is dangerous.

[ruffers]

Ruskin Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well whether there's a mounted camera there or

> not, the line's there stating it's a bus lane and

> it irritates me when drivers hop over the line

> 30yds from the feeder arrow then undertake me

> sitting in the right-hand lane, patiently

> indicating left - and who then refuse to give way

> when I want to move over as I'm supposed to.

>

> And then you bleat about a PCN when you thought

> you'd got away with it. We all know there's little

> room to get over left but when the law says don't

> do it (whether you think its a crap law, or not) -

> don't do it.

This.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The fact that there is little room to move over left actually makes it more important that people don't whip out and block off those waiting to come over.

[erenali]

If everyone follows the rules of the roads we won't have any issues! I am a safe driver and I follow the highway code I have been driving for 15 years and never even had a parking ticket!