Bob Dylan wins Nobel prize

[titch juicy]

Thoroughly deserved.

[Vick]

It's BS. Novel prize for literature?!?! Bloody baby boomers.

[jaywalker]

No it isn't BS. Read Christopher Ricks for the academic judgement on Dylan. I know experts are ridiculed these days but Ricks is worth reading, and Dylan is worth renewed attention.

Not that the Nobel prize committee is usually right!

[KidKruger]

If poetry can be included (not sure if it is/can) then I've no problem with songsters too.

If we do look at songsters, Dylan is the main man by a country mile.

I get that he don't write books and if the rules for the prize say books only then yes he shouldn't have been nominated.

But somewhere the rules must say he is legible for consideration, so he was.

There's no single book or single author (say Dostoyevsky, Gogol, Turgenev, Tolstoy) that have impacted me as deeply as Dylan's words in his lyrics.

Horses for courses though.

I can understand the shock horror of him being awarded. I'm not bothered whether Dylan gets this prize or not, it's not like he needs extra credentials to validate his abilities and legacy and he's probably embarrassed by the whole thing and will reel-off a hundred (in his view) more worthy wordsmiths.

[rendelharris]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> If poetry can be included (not sure if it is/can)

> then I've no problem with songsters too.

> If we do look at songsters, Dylan is the main man

> by a country mile.

> I get that he don't write books and if the rules

> for the prize say books only then yes he shouldn't

> have been nominated.

> But somewhere the rules must say he is legible for

> consideration, so he was.

> There's no single book or single author (say

> Dostoyevsky, Gogol, Turgenev, Tolstoy) that have

> impacted me as deeply as Dylan's words in his

> lyrics.

> Horses for courses though.

> I can understand the shock horror of him being

> awarded. I'm not bothered whether Dylan gets this

> prize or not, it's not like he needs extra

> credentials to validate his abilities and legacy

> and he's probably embarrassed by the whole thing

> and will reel-off a hundred (in his view) more

> worthy wordsmiths.

Very good summation (as a massive fan I'm delighted both for the recognition of his genius and the fact that it's upset a few tweed jacketed harrumphers) - yes poetry's always been considered for the Nobel, Kipling, Yeats, Eliot and Heaney being the recipients from our islands.

Salman Rushdie best summed up why the objectors are wrong: "From Orpheus to Faiz, song & poetry have been closely linked. Dylan is the brilliant inheritor of the bardic tradition. Great choice." He might also have mentioned Homer, whose work would often have been performed to music - the concept of poem and song were pretty much synonymous.

ETA before I get nitpicked yes I do know Eliot was an American but as all his great works were written after he moved to England and he became a naturalised British subject he counts as one of ours.

[Jah Lush]

Agree with the above posts that it is fully deserved. Dylan's a writer after all and he's certainly our greatest living songwriter so I don't have any problem with it. It's thoroughly well deserved.

[rendelharris]

Dylan as pure poet (ignore the images), as good a eulogy as Auden on Yeats or Shelley on Keats...

[*Bob*]

A poem must convey everything just by words.

The magic, indefinable element of a song is the symbiosis of words and music.

IMO a song is a song and poetry is poetry - and the most successful forms of each are not interchangeable simply by adding music or by taking it away.

[Mick Mac]

That's very serious for you Bob. Where's the pun?

[*Bob*]

It's the New Me, Mick.

[Mick Mac]

Oh no.

Tragic.

[titch juicy]

The OED definition of literature.

[mass noun] Written works, especially those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I love Dylan, bit price for literature?!? I agree with bob

[titch juicy]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I love Dylan, bit price for literature?!? I agree

> with bob

But he's produced incredible literature for over 60 years.

[Sue]

His lyrics are brilliant, and as songs they are even more brilliant.

In my opinion the prize is well deserved. Great choice.

ETA: And he has written a book, though not a "literature" one. He has written the first volume of his autobiography. Chronicles.

[KidKruger]

He also wrote Tarantula back in the day but that's not a defining work.

[rendelharris]

titch juicy Wrote:

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> The OED definition of literature.

>

> Written works, especially those considered of

> superior or lasting artistic merit.

Well his works are written down, in the sleeve notes - he writes them down when he writes songs. Many poets give readings of their works, we don't say that as what has been written down is then performed in a different medium that the "hard copy" can't be literature. It's perfectly possible to describe Dylan as a poet performing the poems he's written down, he just happens to add a bitching guitar track to the performance.

[KidKruger]

I think a few years ago I started a 'Bob Dylan fave songs' thread, perhaps worth resurrecting, if someone can find it, in honour of Zimmer's award.

[titch juicy]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The OED definition of literature.

> >

> > Written works, especially those considered of

> > superior or lasting artistic merit.

>

> Well his works are written down, in the sleeve

> notes - he writes them down when he writes songs.

> Many poets give readings of their works, we don't

> say that as what has been written down is then

> performed in a different medium that the "hard

> copy" can't be literature. It's perfectly

> possible to describe Dylan as a poet performing

> the poems he's written down, he just happens to

> add a bitching guitar track to the performance.

My post was to point out that Bob Dylan's work is literature in the strictest sense of the word.

[rendelharris]

titch juicy Wrote:

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> My post was to point out that Bob Dylan's work is

> literature in the strictest sense of the word.

Whoosh! as I completely missed your point! Apologies.

[titch juicy]

No problem at all.

[holloway]

I thought Nobel prizes were awarded for a particular contribution to literature/science/peace such as a landmark discovery or negotiation of a treaty?

Dylan's award seems to be for his whole lifetimes work which is obviously impressive, but doesn't seem to fit into the Nobel literature category. In my opinion.

[rendelharris]

holloway Wrote:

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> I thought Nobel prizes were awarded for a

> particular contribution to

> literature/science/peace such as a landmark

> discovery or negotiation of a treaty?

> Dylan's award seems to be for his whole lifetimes

> work which is obviously impressive, but doesn't

> seem to fit into the Nobel literature category. In

> my opinion.

You're right about science and peace, but the literature criterion is "the most outstanding work in an ideal direction" - so amorphous it can mean anything the committee chooses I think. It's always awarded nowadays for the whole body of work rather than one particular book, poem or in this case song. The general criteria are roughly to have literary merit and display humanitarianism/idealism.

It's worth noting that amidst all the fuss about Dylan's award that the Nobel committees are hardly the ultimate arbiters of literature - off the top of my head those who never got the prize include Nabokov, Joyce, Proust, Tolstoy, Auden and Chekhov - quite a list!

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

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It's perfectly

> possible to describe Dylan as a poet performing

> the poems he's written down, he just happens to

> add a bitching guitar track to the performance.

It's interesting, because I think Dylan's lyrics work in their own right without the music, whereas Leonard Cohen's "poetry" is in my opinion terrible, though I like many of his songs because the music and the performance add so much to the lyrics.

[rendelharris]

Ah, I'd have to respectfully disagree there Sue - my only gripe with Bob getting the prize is that Laughing Len hasn't too many years left and they probably won't now give it to another songwriter for a decade or more.

Now the courtroom is quiet, but who will confess.

Is it true you betrayed us? The answer is Yes.

Then read me the list of the crimes that are mine,

I will ask for the mercy that you love to decline.

And all the ladies go moist, and the judge has no choice,

a singer must die for the lie in his voice.

And I thank you, I thank you for doing your duty,

you keepers of truth, you guardians of beauty.

Your vision is right, my vision is wrong,

I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song.