City bonuses

[Jeremy]

Alan may have a point... you show me a soc-ia-list/communist country where the average person has a comfortable standard of living. We all reap the benefits of a succesful capitalist economy on a daily basis.

[Alan Dale]

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[downsouth]

Sean depsite my typos and incomplete sentences (forums are a cruel exposition) I'll will soldier on...

What I was saying was that you seek to redistrubute wealth no other reason other than it is 'fair' (as nebuoluos a concept if ever there were one). It is far fairer that people were self -relaint and only those in need were assisted.

I don't think giving money to the deserving and not so deserving helps anyone else. Speaking from experience of those close to me, it breeds dependency and before you know it, it's too late.

Neither will you be less likely to be mugged. What you will get is those who work being less likely to work hard and seeing the point at which the lines of the benefit of working and not working cross ever lower. It is simply unproductive.

The equality issue should be about equal access to education because that is where social mobility arises.

[SeanMacGabhann]

whoah - I turn my back for 2 minutes and how many replies???

In order the (I think!)

Jeremy: my point exactly. Limited amount of top jobs so if we over-compensate those people ther is less for the majority. Plus there was a genreal feeling amongst the Slytherins (oh come on I mean it well ;-) ) that if only people pulled up their socks they too could be in the money, when mathematically they just can't

Alan - I presume you mean there IS a finite amount of money to share out? In any case I don't thin we need to reduce the obsecenly wealthy to penury and bread queues - such melodrama! To take a tiny example, in the recent budget the abolition of the 10p tax band was at the expense of the poorest and used to pep up those well off. It wasn't a huge burden on the middle-classes was it?

Dave R and Jeremy Pt 2 - I'm not against a market economy. I think I've said that a number of times. Instead of holding up a communist/soci-alist state I have already used Scandanavian market-economy models (and to a lesser extent the European model) as a "fairer" example of a genuine stakeholder society. Speaking of fairness

Downsouth - indeed the definition is up for debate. But everyone on here knows exaactly what I'm talking about. And to rebut (if I may) the crime wouldn't reduce, again I refer you to countries outside the US/UK model which manage to incorporate a free market into a fairer society (speaking of free markets and US protectionism... oh that can wait until later). Also re: your education point I can agree that it is the best starting point but once again - even if everyone did their utmost and there were no slackers, some will be better suited to the top jobs, the so-so jobs and the plain shockers - why condemn them to penury of they just aren't equipped?

There lingers a nasty condemnation of poor people as deserving of their fate and that ain't always so

[Alan Dale]

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[SeanMacGabhann]

It is not finite ... so .... therefore infinite????

I feel so close to having my word changed, and yet so far....

[Alan Dale]

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[downsouth]

It has to be infinite otherwise how do we now have a middle class and how is China getting rich? Surely the brakes would have gone on?

[Alan Dale]

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[*Bob*]

Just a minor aside..

My old history prof lived in East Berlin (before the demise of the wall, obviously). He had some interesting things to say about what East Berliners (the people, not the hot dogs) thought about the society forced upon them. He honestly felt that (for all its faults) there was a sense of 'fairness' amongst the common people, that he hasn't felt anywhere else since.

He also missed the wall coming down cos he was in the pub and didn't believe it when someone came in to spread the news.

[downsouth]

But by the time that happens I'd hazard some will have left this solar system to 'colonise' a new part of space. Infinity is what you make of it. I share your view that the earth's resources are finite but then in terms of layers we've only scratched 1-2% of the surface. The amount of heat and minerals etc... much deeperi in the crust and core will - barring armageddon, natural or otherwise - probably keep the human race going for a while yet.

[Alan Dale]

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[downsouth]

I have optimism in human ingenuity. Not necessarily in human nature!

[Jeremy]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Limited amount of top

> jobs so if we over-compensate those people ther is

> less for the majority.

But City traders aren't over compensated. As someone else pointed out (was it Mockney?), they are paid according to how much money they earn for the company. They're paid what they're worth... no more, no less. "Fat-cat" CEOs are a different matter, that's not what I'm discussing here.

> Plus there was a genreal

> feeling amongst the Slytherins (oh come on I mean

> it well ;-) ) that if only people pulled up their

> socks they too could be in the money, when

> mathematically they just can't

I never said that people were guaranteed a top job if they pulled their socks up. You have to be smarter and harder working than the competition - and it's not for everyone. But I don't have a problem with the top n% earning a lot of money.

[Alan Dale]

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[James]

The idea that you're paid "what you're worth" doesn't ring true to me. Are you telling me a city trader is 'worth' dozens of the rest of us? What does that mean? Is he more important (for it usually is a bloke - generally speaking a pompous, white, over-privileged, aggressive twat - for these are the characteristics that help you thrive in this line of work).

[SeanMacGabhann]

Jeremy

have another look at mockney s post. It illustrates as real life example of self satisfied over paid city bonus types who were confronted with evidednce that the bank would have generated as much money if they never existed.

[Jeremy]

Alan - yeah you're right, the City is not entirely a meritocracy. I was trying to point out that some people from modest backgrounds manage to land very, very well paid jobs. And as I've said before, times are changing... I guess you know that the banks are shifting more and more to conventional recruitment paths. Maybe because of the changing skills needed to be a succesful trader.

James - didn't mean to imply that they're worth more as individuals than the rest of us. That's obviously not true. I am purely talking in financial terms - percentages of how much money they bring in. In fact I'm pretty sure you know what I mean, but are just picking an argument. The stereotypical description of a trader is slightly outdated, and not really relevant to the points I'm trying to get across.

Sean - I think I'm talking about another post. However, I have read the post you mention, and it sounds incredibly unlikely that they would have made the same amount by investing in a high street savings account (and anyway, how do you think high street banks make their money?) The argument doesn't really hold any water. Investing and trading is central to the economy. Even in Scandanavia.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I can only refute the charge that i am agin trade and investment so many times before i feel the need to do something more useful. . .

the point is not to argue against capitalism but to harness it for as much good as possible before we do run out of resources or come up with a better plan.

so we have established that the scandancviam countries are capitalist countries. At last. Now can we look at how they do some things a little differently for the benefit of their citizens while seemingly managing to avoid everyone being on the bread line? Can we? Great. . .

[Jose]

So where do people stand on tax breaks, including income tax breaks for vcs and reports that more and more massive companies aren't paying corporate tax in one way or another.

I assume that most of us think that huge profits for companies are fine as long as the benefit for the greater community is evident through tax revenues, employment and trade.

So what do we think when the bonuses being paid out are on largely untaxed profits and the possibility that the tax breaks given to VCs and the asset-stripping investment banks aren't putting as much in the national coffers as we might wish?

Even though the forum is be no means wholly set out against the bonusses, we should keep in mind that 'earning money for their company' in many of these cases, isn't the same as 'earning money for the economy' especially where tax is concerned.

Add to this the argument that many of the individuals recieving the bonusses aren't paying the same % tax as most of us and the pay gap isn't between the 'super rich' and the 'poor' but the 'super rich' and 'everyone else'. Surely there is good reason to feel just a little peeved.

SeanMacG's point is right. It is about encouraging and harnessing trade and growth in a way that benefits society to the greatest extent. Is it that at the moment, we don't feel that this is the case and that city bonusses are an example of this?

Still, the bonus bubble seems to now have burst thanks to efforts by the US to get more people on the property ladder. Swings and rounabouts.

[macroban]

> So where do people stand on tax breaks, including income tax breaks for vcs

I have no problem with this. Do you?

"The pensions and other payments listed below are to be disregarded as stated. These are non-taxable war pensions and any increase in pension payable as a result of injury on duty or a work-related illness

A wounds pension or disability pension to the extent disregarded under S315(1) of ICTA 1988 (War Pension)

An annuity or additional pension payable to a holder of the Victoria Cross, George Cross or any other decoration mentioned in Section 317 of the Taxes Act 2001. (War pension)"

[downsouth]

Bear in mind that companies pay VAT, NI contribtutions, business rates, corporation tax, stamp duty and myriad of other taxes. Looking at corporation tax muddies the water. Also consider employment and the resultant benefits.

And no, I do get peeved off that some people are super rich and I am not.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Businesses start up in the full knowledge of teh range of tax they need to pay - avoidance is not a "hidden cost"

A certain global media group which may or may not be owned by someone from teh southern hemisphere is famous for avoiding most of the taxes you mention above, while at the same time seeking british nationality

Ditto anyone rich enough to afford decent accountants can (and do) avoid most UK taxes on an individual basis - what make them "better" than us exactly?

[downsouth]

I work for one of the largest companies in the world and believe you me way pay a hell of a lot of tax. granted most of the corporation tax is paid in another jurisdiction for the parent company but even then the company pays billions to the UK government.

[SeanMacGabhann]

So do I downsouth (work for one of the biggest etc) The amount involved may be huge but as a percentage of what it should be, or in comparison to others...