City bonuses

[downsouth]

But then that is a wider question as to "what the tax should be". The tax is what it is. If you try to raise it higher or restrict set offs and the like business will move away. We had that issue where I work which after a restructure left the UK worse off than if the tax regime as attractive as other European systems.

Now which would I prefer, a lower level of tax for companies but far more of them choosing the UK as their main office etc... or a higher threshold but less companies choosing the UK? I'd go for the former. Revenues are far more important not percentages and I personally think that is the hang up that too often people cite - be it the relative poverty debate or otherwsie. Absolutes are better than relatives. Better to have ?100 than 99% of 1p.

On the wider question as to what tax should be that's a question that I don't think government's have ever really resolved themselves. We all like to bleat on - no offence intended - about the profits of big companies but we at the same time want to attract and retain them in the UK for 'high vlaue' jobs. See the uproar when car plants shut down - in the American vernacular "It's the tax system stupid".

If and when they choose to go elsewhere - i.e for R&D as there aren't any decent tax breaks in the UK - we then hear the lambasting of the government who "should have done more". I am undecided as to the appropriate tax regime but working in head offices as I have for the past 6 or so years with the directors and head of functions I know that the UK will be the one to lose out should the Daily Mail, Mirror Et al get their pound of fleeting flesh.

[SeanMacGabhann]

You paint the picture of large corporations as another version of Bob Crowe and his mates

"Give us what we want or we are off"

I'm not saying you are wrong.... but it's not very edifying when he does it and the same applies to massive profit making corporations

[downsouth]

No it's not edifying but it is the real world. Unlike the trade unions the UK is in competition with our EC brethren and the wider world. India and China have been slowing picking jobs from lower down the chain but increasinlgy it's the higher value jobs going and many 'shared services centres' springing up. It's unfortunately the way of the world and globalisation is the name of the game.

I have a friend who works for the economic arm of London and they have some real frightening projections if London and the Government don't get their proverbial in gear.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Our EC brethern seem to adopt a more co-operative approach and do fine - it is Britain that retains its special status

Now that the "higher up" jobs are going what;s the problem - those same higher up managers had no problem shipping lower-down jobs to India... tast of their own medicine. Customers in the UK want local call-centres for example - not many companies listen

Many of us have friends in the economic arm of London. Good times or bad times - they speak self-interested arse mostly. ( see passim re: how they have packaged up debt and caused problems in the derivatives market)

Anyone a year or two ago suggesting that all of that mortgage dealing in the sub-prime market was likely to be told how naive they were.

Remember - most of these boys in the city are simply young geezers. They know nothing of the world. I thought when I came to the city I would meet the brightest minds... how wrong I was

Ha

[downsouth]

Point 1: EC brethren - that's not true. I think you'll find the Netherlands, Spain and Ireland have been taking our jobs/businesses re foreign direct investment for some years now. Their tax rate for corporations are half ours. Google the performance of Ireland over the past 20 years and you will see a direct correlation. they are now wealthier per capita than the UK.

I'm talking about the London Development Agency which is the economic arm for the Mayor. Not some birght eyed bushy tailed no nothings - I have plenty of those friends too. There's no self-interest there not with red ken at any rate.

I disagreed with the lower down jobs going and it goes for the jobs up the chain. Facts are it won't change. Admittedly call centre jobs are coming back to the UK now after so much discontentment. What is the point of saving a few million when you have a profit of hundreds of millions or billions. So they have farmed some roles back here. It is a complex area that I'm not the expert on but what I do know is that we are not set up for business. That is where wealth comes from and a distribution direct or indirect of wealth eminates.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I am loving the dialogue downsouth.. but we are unlikely to ever agree are we?

You mention other countries taking our jobs/businesses for years now - have I missed something - UK plc has being doing pretty well for some time and the impending credit collapse will hit Ireland (for example) much harder than the UK (being Irish I get to go back lots and can see the paper-thin building edifice the country is built upon) All of this regardless of tax rates for welfare mother... sorry I mean corporations

You have been the one arguing for unfettered free trade. Therefore disagreeing with the lower-down jobs going is a bit "moo" (Friends reference = moot)

Jobs are coming back (as predicted at the time of their going - business didn't listen then and won't now) But I disagree that UK is not set up for business. There is this idea that doing business in London is near impossible with the red tape and rstrictions but it isn't borne out by the number of companies investing here

[downsouth]

Nah we won't agree... but that's what makes life that more interesting having your views challenged and having to review what it is you yourself believe.

I am all up for free trade where such freedom is multi or bliateral. For instance I don't believe that companies from counties which are restrictive/prescriptive re their own FDI should be allowed to own or buyout UK companies i.e Russian, Chinese, India etc... They have so many stipulations etc.. that it is not a level playing field. Also, I never agreed with the whole call centre and manufacturing thing - from first principles - give customers what they want. Customers want quality over price to a degree.

Customers expect to speak to people at the end of the phone who they believe have some degree of proximity to them in terms of location and not "John" in Mumbai. It makes people feel as though they are being poorly duped. This whole bubble has been built on China producing things we don't need. Now we are locked into this bubble and if such things were made here it would create inflation. It was made possible by greed. Better labour laws are needed. Not onerous but fairer to UK workers. See I am not all right wing!

Many businesses have gone elsewhere. We are still top for FDI in Europe due to a deep capital market and a rampant consumerism unknown in Europe.

I agree with your description of Ireland but come on, compared to where they were? Any fall will be temporary.

Re red tape, we are not as bad as some but there is far too much HSSE and all thes rest that is not needed. Cut it back to the requsite i.e. Age, Sex and Race discrimation. Some HSSE but honestly if you saw the budgets for the stuff - they've created industries and many lawyers are chewing off the fat.

But in closing, no we won't agree but that's cool. You have made me unlock my caring side and show him some daylight, albeit for a few moments to feel that breeze on his face, then he was marched back to the dungeon by callousness and gluttony.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Geez Louise - I didn't expect so broad an answer! ;-)

I think we are done on this - pint soon?

[downsouth]

Indeed!

[SeanMacGabhann]

long dead this thread and I don't really want to restart it, but as Marmora Man commented on a related thread, and also happens to be an Laughing Len fan, I happened to be listening to this track today and thought it appropriate

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded

Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed

Everybody knows that the war is over

Everybody knows the good guys lost

Everybody knows the fight was fixed

The poor stay poor, the rich get rich

Thats how it goes

Everybody knows

[Marmora Man]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> long dead this thread and I don't really want to

> restart it, but as Marmora Man commented on a

> related thread, and also happens to be an Laughing

> Len fan, I happened to be listening to this track

> today and thought it appropriate

>

> Everybody knows that the dice are loaded

> Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed

> Everybody knows that the war is over

> Everybody knows the good guys lost

> Everybody knows the fight was fixed

> The poor stay poor, the rich get rich

> Thats how it goes

> Everybody knows

Have you been watching the Labour Party Conference then? Even more depressing than Mr C.

[macroban]

This year's bonus is not to be made redundant.

[Jeremy]

Typically optimistic Cohen lyrics! Saying that "the dice are loaded" in this context is the easy way out... so we can just sit back and be bitter about the state of the world, without thinking about how our paths are determined, or what can be done to redress the balance.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

If i, if I have been unkind,

I hope that you can just let it go by.

If i, if I have been untrue

I hope you know it was never to you.

peace to all men

[SeanMacGabhann]

You're not too wrong MM

[longtalljohn]

Just looking at this thread, and I haven't looked at all the posts, but I do have to say that Mr Alan Dale, you have presented yourself as the worst kind of self important idiot.

So you work in the City and earn a decent bonus. Fine. As it happens, so do I. But I wouldn't assume that this means that everyone in East Dulwich was living in abject misery until I turned up and ordered a latte.

I have to admit many of the points you make are quite true (the Guardian has made a fetish of City bonuses in the same way the Daily Mail has immigration, the idea that economics is a zero sum game is self-evidently incorrect otherwise they?d be no more money around than 3000 years ago and we?d probably have difficulty getting our round in), but you also clearly have no experience of life or the world if you think relative wealth is unimportant.

And, as *Bob* has pointed out, if you were really the ultra successful figure you seem intent on portraying, you would not be living in South East London (except possibly Dulwich Village or Blackheath), no ifs or buts. I like East Dulwich. I like my job. I'm proud of what I've achieved, through both hard work and luck. But none of that obliges me to act like a complete and utter tool. It's a question of manners, you see.

[Alan Dale]

Removed

[macroban]

Any UBS workers in East Dulwich?

[downsouth]

I know one. But she's been there so long that a. her mortgage is paid off and b. it would not be cost effective to make her redundant. A cold wind is blowing, better wrap up warm.