David Cameron's Conservatives are completely unelectable

[Asset]

what would you have these low wage earners do then?

[downsouth]

I don't follow? Do as opposed to...?

[Asset]

well, they can't be drip fed and nannied by having a council house yet nor can they afford to get on the housing ladder.

[SeanMacGabhann]

"I would rather that than the council continued to drip feed and play nanny to millions of low wage earners."

I can only assume you are opposed to the finacial institutions asking the Bank of England for a hand out in their time of need?

[Alan Dale]

What is interesting is that the 'left wing' of the ED forum appear to have triumphed on this thread (ie no one seems to be claimg the Tories are electable with any success) but seem to be losing the debate on the thread about City Bonuses.

To me that sums up DavCam's failure. There are lots of people out there who have seemingly 'right wing' views on many issued yet the Tories have no idea how to get to these people and harvest their votes.

[downsouth]

But I am saying that I'd rather there were financial insentives for them to own either a stake or all of their own home. The two are not mutually exclusive. Without sounding as though I have the hand of history on my shoulder, there is a third way.

@ Sean - If you understand the financial mechanics of the markets this was in no way a handout but an extension of credit on punitive terms. To see handouts look to the ECB (European Central Bank) and the US Fed Reserve.

Considering all our pensions are at stake I would also be self interested that the BoE stepped in as it should.

[Marmora Man]

Alan Dale Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Kinnock did a great deal to take on the militant

> tendency. There were years of transition.

>

> That said - don't change the subject until Marmora

> Man has had a chance to say something. How do you

> like this 'sample of voters' Marmora Man?

It's a larger selection of the electorate than just yourself Alan - so statistically more significant, which was the point I was intending to make after your commens regarding the statistical illiteracy of politicians and others.

Howvere, I believe personally that the electorate will eventually catch on that Brown is not "change" he is more centralist, controlling and frightening in terms of personal liberty than any leader this country has had. His idea of consensus politics may be just a ploy to wrong foot the opposition but I think he believes so strongly that he is right that anyone questioning him must be wrong - which is not how UK should be run politically - a strong and questioning opposition is healthy.

I hope personally that the Conservatives will adopt my own manifesto (articulated in a much early thread, which I would link this to if I knew how) of allowing ever greater freedom to individuals to control their own lives - reducing govt spend every year by handing decision making power back to individuals and taking it from state monopolies.

Howeever, the cynic in me just feels that it will all be the "same old same old" and my 30 years of enthusiasm for political debate will die. A good friend of mine laments that after 30 years of left wing political activism she has nowhere to put her vote. I feel the same from a right of centre perspective - where does an old fashioned liberal conservative (almost libertarian) place his vote?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Out of interest, is there a country which better represents the kind of politics you seek MM

(I don't mean that in a "why don't you go there" way - I mean just to compare the outcomes)

downsouth - but they needed the injection anyway - entirely because of their own lack of self-restraint in slicing up the debt bundles they so eagerly sold. It's a bit like me saying to my bank "well yes I have mismanaged my account atrociously, but if you wouldn't mind extending my overdraft at your ruinous rates for as long as I need it that would be swell"

And yes it will be of benefit that the whole pension/economy doesn't go down the tubes but really - it's their own fault and still they pay themselves massive bonuses (oooh - linkage to the "other" thread)

[downsouth]

I don't doubt that it is of their own making. Low inflation and interest rates make for huge risk taking. If you've seen all the privaty equity activity has come to a shuddering halt as so it should. They were living in a fiary tale world where you could borrow so much money against a takeover and load the target prior to selling it on at a huge profit. That is simply not 'fair', another link to a topic, and flies in the face of cautious and rigourous analysis.

Back to the point, those who have really screwed up (perhaps the bank with a Griffin and suitor to a large Dutch bank) may yet fall on the swords but not in the EU, USA or Asia.

Anyhow, only time will tell.

[Marmora Man]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Out of interest, is there a country which better

> represents the kind of politics you seek MM

>

> (I don't mean that in a "why don't you go there"

> way - I mean just to compare the outcomes)

Given that "the past is a another place - they do things differently there" - I would plump for the late 19th century. Growing economy, growing literacy, improving health.

I'd grant that, in absolute terms, the early 21st is probably better in terms of health outcomes, life expectancy and possibly crime / violence but then there had been a definite, measurable improvement in all these areas over previous decades and the general feelings were probably optimistic about where life for all was going.

Now I dislike the statist approach that now seems all pervading and cannot feel optimistic about direction of travel.

[downsouth]

Sorry to be contrary again but in the 19th century everyone knew their place and I for one would not want to revert to that time. I understand the sentiment but not the facts. Is there an socio economic model today that you admire?

[Marmora Man]

downsouth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry to be contrary again but in the 19th century

> everyone knew their place and I for one would not

> want to revert to that time. I understand the

> sentiment but not the facts. Is there an socio

> economic model today that you admire?

You're very literal minded downsouth? I was describing an ideal not an actuality.

To, almost certain, hoots of derision I would cite certain aspects of the USA - as run by the Democratic party, rather than a Bush led Republican administration. The general ethos there remains on lower taxes, less state / federal interference, greater self determination and self help than here in UK.

For a longer exposition see earlier thread.

Politics of Provision

PS: As a centre right voter David Cameraon's latest wheeze of national service (non military) for all fills me with despair. True conservatives should not be about telling people what to do but enabling them thru' choice and granting of ever greater personal freedoms along with establishing a culture that self polices to ensure education, self help, community help, love thy neighbour are valued and encouraged.