Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[Marmora Man]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Indeed so marmora. Only it tends to be a dialogue rather than a top down edict.

>

> The Workers should be annoyed with their leadership for not presenting their case, but equally it's a colossal failure of management to not be able to persuade their workforce of the merits of their own proposals. If I was a firefighter i wouldn't strike, but if i was management i would shelve the proposals pending further discussions. I don't see blame as being on one side

Indeed - I fully agree. This is not lions being managed by donkeys - or donkeys being managed by lions. I've said as much in earlier posts.

The dispute arises from about poor behaviour and intransigence on both sides - neither side seems to have any tactical nous. On the I would tend to support the management's right to manage - but recognise that that doesn't make them blameless.

[Marmora Man]

For Comment:

This article, while somewhat sensationalist given its provenance, merits a response from the FBU and other supporters of the strike. Three points made in the article are:

a. Firefighters earn, in London, ?33,500 a year - rising to between ?40,000 and ?50,000 with overtime.

b. That up to one third of London firefighters have second jobs

c. That the strike is about protecting an outdated working practices

The article goes on to suggest that the FBU is opposed to change, that changing times and significantly reduced incidence of fires make the current shift pattern out of date, that the 15 hour night shift where sleeping is allowed supports the 2nd job culture.

[DJKillaQueen]

This second job nonsense (and that sleeping on shifts supports it) has been known for a long time.

Whilst it's only human nature to resist change (esp. change that removes perks), many public sector workers think they have a preferential 'right' to these things.

It's OUR taxes that pay their wages, that fund their pensions and perks......I don't see why anyone should have to fund someone else's job benefits when they no such benefits in their own employment (and work many more hours than FFs).

We as taxpayers have a right to demand that public services are efficient and cost effective. And like MM I have seen no convincing argument from the FFU to say that any of the changes will result in the claims they make with reference to service.

Oh and striking on November 5th is just cycnical and designed to hold the management and us the public to ransom imo but will achieve nothing.

[Pilgrim]

The shift patterns wont change ability to do second job, They have permission to do second job! What is wrong with that anyway? Other public sector workers have second jobs! Some firefighters second jobs are with Territorial Army, and they are currently serving in Afganistan, So that is wrong? Please get back to the real issue. It is not about shift changes, money, second jobs, It is about section 188. Remove that and the strikes do not go ahead. FBU have offered three different shift patterns one of which will extend daytime. The LFB have refused to discuss these patterns.

Why all this outcry about what they do in their days off? What is wrong with it? It in no way alters their ablility to do the job of being a firefighter! The LFB would like to have firefighters employed on day shifts only and remove cover for the nightshifts and outsourcing to private companies ie Assetco, Which will mean 30% or more of Staions will be closed at night.

[Moflo]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> This second job nonsense (and that sleeping on

> shifts supports it) has been known for a long

> time.

>

> Whilst it's only human nature to resist change

> (esp. change that removes perks), many public

> sector workers think they have a preferential

> 'right' to these things.

>

> It's OUR taxes that pay their wages, that fund

> their pensions and perks......I don't see why

> anyone should have to fund someone else's job

> benefits when they no such benefits in their own

> employment (and work many more hours than FFs).

>

> We as taxpayers have a right to demand that public

> services are efficient and cost effective. And

> like MM I have seen no convincing argument from

> the FFU to say that any of the changes will result

> in the claims they make with reference to

> service.

>

> Oh and striking on November 5th is just cycnical

> and designed to hold the management and us the

> public to ransom imo but will achieve nothing.

They pay for their pension as well, they pay 11% of their wage and this is increasing to 14%. We pay for pensions in all public sectors but so do the workers, they pay tax as well so infact are funding the pensions twice? They also pay tax one their "second jobs" if of course they have one. My son certainly doesnt!

[Huguenot]

The firefighters have refused to negotiate for five years, remove the section 188 dismissal and they'll still be refusing to negotiate in five years time.

You don't know what the LFB want, you're just scaremongering and smearing senior management. Your 'statistics' on closure have been made up.

How do firefighters expect to earn the support of the general public when they simply won't be honest with them?

[DJKillaQueen]

No it's not Pilgrim....every news report says this dispute is about shift patterns and related changes. And it's failure to agree on those that has forced the management to issue new contracts. There would be no section 188 if your union had come to agreement with the management (but as usual unions think they get to have it all their way or hold us all up to ransom).

Anyway, you will not win any dispute this way. Those contracts will come into force and you will choose whether you sign them or you get another job. We have a Tory government remember and you won't win on this.

Well Moflo most private sector workers can't afford pensions...public sector workers get generous and afforbale pensions subsidised by tax payers. Public sector workers don't.

[Kbabe01]

They have not been negotiating for 5 years. There has been a yearly memo sent out but nothing else. Talks started in June this year and 188 was issued in august this year. The LFB want to change shift to 12/12 in order for them to in time be able to reduce night time cover at some stations. This isn't made up. Press have had the document that was "leaked" headed Actions to Consider. Not surprisingly press such as the daily mail have decided not to let you know this. Instead they decide to print names and locations of ff that dont live in London. A bit pathetic seeing as London weighting depends on where you work not live. Good old Tory newspapers!! But if you believe everything you read then that's up to you. I can tell u most of it is bull!

Regarding pensions sounds like a case of I don't get so why should they! Again. Pathetic.

[DJKillaQueen]

Regarding pensions sounds like a case of I don't get so why should they! Again. Pathetic.

So you think it's perfectly fair that we should all pay for public sector workers pension whilst most can't afford one for themselves. Typical selfish public sector 'poor me ' attitude....

Not pathetic at all but a real understanding of the poverty that comes with state pension....for people who have worked just as hard and just as long. That comment by you is why the public are increasingly less supportive of public sector disputes. If you want public support and respect, show them some in return.

The gravy train is over for ALL of us.

[Moflo]

Public sector workers pay tax and so contribute to the whole! They also pay quite a large proportion of their wages into their pension fund. So you are saying that is wrong? That nurses, doctors, police should not have a pension fund. Firefighters pay 11% increasing to 14% I do not know what the police pay into their pensions but would expect it is something similar. So they pay tax, national insurance and private pension whats wrong with that. Are you saying if they get a private pension they shouldnt get a state pension as well? Tell that to the people who have paid into both over the last 50 year or so! They are all sponging off us tax payers are they? In the private sector most companies offer pensions scheme, obviously there are some that don't but the majority do. You can opt in or opt out it is your choice.

[Kbabe01]

I'm not a public sector worker. I do however think they are entitled to what they get. Just because I dont get it doesn't mean they shouldn't. Especially emergency services. All of them.

[frierntastic]

It's incredible that the FF think the best way to deal with a Coalition - but Tory led - government is this kind of blackmail. You may have got away with it under the last government, but this one won't stand for it.

And DJKQ is absolutely right, the halcyon days of the public sector are over; if FF and their unions had any sense whatsoever they would be trying to win public support, offer a change in working practices to reduce the amount of redundancies and, frankly, behave like grown-ups. The NHS, Police etc all manage it - perhaps their recruits are driven more by the idea of public service, rather than what they can get from the system.

As for striking on 5 Nov, I hope that, if anyone is injured, or property lost through lack of fire cover, that they sue.

[Marmora Man]

Moflo - just a point of information - firefighters and other public sector workers may well pay tax - but they do so from a salary that is paid from taxation. Once upon a time the military didn't pat pay tax.

Then in order to make their salaries more comparable with non military service they were given a pay rise that exactly equalled the tax they were to pay.

Net they received absolutely no benefit and the tax they paid had no value to the exchequer as it was simply gov't / taxpayers money being recirculated. In fact less than no value as it had cost money to collect the tax due. In exactly the same way firefighters and other public sector employees tax has no value.

[dita-on-tees]

probably off topic but... not only are pensions unaffordable for many private sector workers but the amount needed in a pension pot to drive an income that you can actuallu live on in retirement is obscene. With a money purchase pension, which the majority of private sector workers will have, you have to buy an annuity before 70. I was doing some work on annuity rates a few years ago and was horrified that for your average retiree at 65 you need a 460k pension pot to purchase an annuity which gives an income of 20 - 25k a year (its even worse for women due to life expectancy). Average private pensions pot sizes are 26k. Bleak mathematics in action

[Huguenot]

Absolutely right MM. Public sectors workers do NOT generate tax or pension revenue.

Almost all salaries, perks, pensions, extended holidays are paid for by the income tax of those working in the private sector.

Public sector 'taxes' and 'pensions' are merely recirculating tax revenues from private sector workers.

[Moflo]

So what are you saying MM, that there shouldn't be public sector workers? that they all are a drain on society? That all sections of society should be in the private sector so that we can return to the victorian Mill owner mentality and that all workers should be subservient and thankful for their lot?

[native]

I agree totally the firemen should get what they want , there always getting crap because they take union or strike action, they protect all of us when our homes are up in flames, and do many other things , the fire brigade is part of london history, saving lives and buildings , representing brave men and women who should get all the support they deserve, it's a joke that scab firefighter's are standing in for the proper brigade , privitisation gone too far in my opinion but hey most of london gone that way , what next ?

I hope the london fire brigade get what they want , go on all of you do what you have to do , good luck .

[Moflo]

I am sure all ff's thank you for you comments native. On behalf of my son I do.

[Marmora Man]

Dita,

It's not quite that bad in absolute terms.

Today's average salary is approx ?24,000. If someone put away roughly ?3,000 a year, (?3,000 is about 15% of post tax ?24,000 income - a large % but perhaps worth it) they would generate a pension pot of ?275,000 - giving a pension of roughly ?12,000 - which with a state pension of ?7,000 would give a post working life pension of ?19,000 - by no means a fortune but equivalent to 78% of working salary.

If, over time, they can afford to put a greater % into the pot or they maintain that % of a higher salary so the pension pot value and subsequent pension rises.

[Marmora Man]

Moflo Wrote:

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So what are you saying MM, that there shouldn't be public sector workers? that they all are a drain on society? That all sections of society should be in the private sector so that we can return to the victorian Mill owner mentality and that all workers should be subservient and thankful for their lot?

No - you demonstrate an incredible ability to misread a comment. What I said, and what Hugenot has also stated, is that tax paid by public sector workers has no impact or value since it is simply recycled taxpayers money.

[Loz]

native Wrote:

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> I agree totally the firemen should get what they

> want , there always getting crap because they take

> union or strike action

That's just plain wrong. Previous times the FFs have gone on strike they have had a lot of public sympathy. This time they have, quite literally, thrown that public support on the bonfire.

[Moflo]

frierntastic Wrote:

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>

> As for striking on 5 Nov, I hope that, if anyone

> is injured, or property lost through lack of fire

> cover, that they sue.

Sue who? The firefighters for striking or the lfb for saying they have adequate cover when they know they dont? Sue assetco for taking on a contract they know they cant honour? Sue LFB for not stopping the strikes? Because they could stop it right now. By lifting the 188. But they choose not to. They choose to allow the strike to go ahead. So who are you going to sue? Maybe all of them? Or are we just blaming the ff's for all this.

[native]

no problem moflo im proud of london and the good work your son and his fellow firefighter's do , it's a shame other's want to knock and discredit what they do and begrudge them certain rights and working condition's it's a sad time when the private sector turn up driving the brigade's engine's , i just hope my home doesnt go up when they work the shift , i will probably have to get my wallet out for them to turn the hoses on .......

[Moflo]

A fireman is for life not just for Bonfire night ;-)

[native]

Why is that wrong then ? because they plan to strike on the 5th ? maybe it's for a reason have you ever wondered loz ? i understand fully !!! Not rocket science is it ?