Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[Moflo]

Hearing from friends and family who attended picket lines, plenty of public support, RMT workers refused to run Jubilee line because would be dangerous pracice wihout proper fire cover. Same will happen again on the 1st. As it is a weekday the potential for major disruption is there!

LFB can put whatever spin they like on it, they know that they cannot maintain safe procedures. I expect you are all fed up with me spouting on so I won't any more. Unless i get annoyed again that is! Stay safe everyone, support your London Firefighters!!

[Marmora Man]

I said I'd bow out of this debate but I'm amazed at how those in favour of the strike can portray themselves as oppressed and subject to censorship from powerful forces. Quite a persecution complex from a team of people that have resolutely refused to discuss or consider changes to their working practices established over 30 years ago, despite significant improvements to fire safety in modern London and the role & tasks of the Fire Service.

Citing the support of Bob Crow and his union is not something that would persuade me that this is strike is a sensible and rational move. Quite the opposite - the RMT has a history of political strikes and excessive use of their stranglehold on the London Underground / staff to bully the public and management.

[Moflo]

Here we go again, and what do you expect them to do if LFB and Mr Coleman will not negotiate? Just take whatever they put in front of them? Again it is not about shift patterns or money. It is about section 188! If it was just about shift pattrns why wouldnt they accept the 24hour pattern put forward by the FBU. It works on all levels. But its not about that and the LFB, Mr Dobson and Mr Colemn know this. The FBU know this, the FF's know this.

I agree to an extent about the RMT but as you will no doubt be aware they is growing unrest in all the unions and the Fire Authority is fuelling the fire. No pun intended! Its easily resolved. Remove section 188!

[reggie]

Is section 188 something about the rights of wearing a fireman's uniform inappropriately?

[laincoubert]

Marmora man please. They are not refusing to change their working practises or their roles or fighting change for the sake of it. They merely want to negotiate s settlement that isn't too detrimental too them. They can't do that now cause of the 188 and come November 25th if management refuse doggedly to accept the proposed changes that the union has offered then they will have new contracts anyway or be on the dole depending upon their personal circumstances.

I think that making false and hugely innaccurate statements against them is persecution isnt it. And that's what you are doing in order to discredit them and blame them for causing this dispute despite the raft of contrary information that this thread contains.

When government have finished with the brigade, they will use this draconian law to eliminate bargaining power from police, nurses teachers and all civil servants too. Except themselves!!

Why would you deny a group of people the right to negotiate their own contract?

[Pearson]

Because they're lucky to have a contract?

there are a lot people who don't have a contract.

There are a lot of people who don't have a union.

There are a lot of people who work 'odd hours'

There are a lot of people who have gratefully taken pay cuts to retain a job.

There are a lot of people who are grateful to be employed.

What makes the FF's so different from the rest of us?

[Moflo]

Pearson, are you jealous of firefighters? did you fail the process? Did a union refuse you entry because you was so obstropilous (did I spell it right? sorry if no!) and might give them a bad name.COme on man lighten up! Can you not agree that they have the right to stand up for what they believe in! Its not their fault that other people have shit jobs, or bad working conditions, or not in a union. I have all these but I wouldn't deny anyone their right to protest, why are you different.

Thank you Iaincoubert for you comments at least someone understands the issue.

[laincoubert]

Because they have a union and a legally binding contract in place already they think their special and better than other working class people?

Or Because their chief and political masters have succeeded in achieving very highly paid positions of authority that everything they do and say is true and only done for the good of the tax paying public?

Should we take away their contracts and their unions just to prove that they are no different to anyone else. Maybe we could return Europe to the feudal system and make them all serfs?

Perhaps I am just tired and missing your point.

[DJKillaQueen]

The fire service have had five years to negotiate. Truth is they think they can hold their managers to ransom until they get it their way.

[Marmora Man]

DJKQ - absolutely. Quite apart from the current financial situation the refusal of the FBU to recognise the need for change or to respond in a rational way to the objective analysis of the benefits that the 12/12/12/12 shift pattern would bring is the cause of the strike NOT Section 188.

The only "downside" of the proposed new shift pattern is that firefighters on night shifts would not have as much "rest time" during which they can sleep - which I find difficult to sympathise with - greater productivity is delivered and night shift staff can sleep during the day like all other night shift workers.

[brum]

This is such a circular debate. It could go on longer than 5 years at this rate! At the risk of contributing further to it, I feel I have to make this point, yet again...

MM - you mention 'greater productivity' as if firefighters are night shift workers in a factory. They aren't. They provide a 999 emergency service. At night, they can't do the 'productivity' stuff, like community fire safety visits, fitting smoke alarms, training with their equipment. They are simply on-call.

The Fire Commissioner is also on-call at night time, except he can do it from his home - just as I did, as a Station Commander. And I am sure he sleeps, as I did, with his pager alerter next to his bed. This system has been around for decades and it works perfectly well.

So, it doesn't make sense to keep firefighters awake just for the sake of it. There are no 'productivity' benefits to be had at night time. Its a pointless argument to compare them to 'all other night shift workers'.

[Marmora Man]

Brum,

Productivity can be improved by lengthening the day shift - during which firefighters can carry out their prevention work and other productive activities in hours when the general public and businesses they serve are around. The papers that have been posted on this thread make it very clear that other fire brigades have seen benefits from changing the shift pattern - London Fire Brigade management is right to seek such benefits, staff are being foolish if they believe out of date working practices can be preserved in aspic.

There is a real difference between being the Fire Commissioner on-call and asleep and the front line staff also being asleep. The Fire Commissioner is not expected to drive immediately, at speed, to the site of the fire and fight the fire, that's what the frontline staff are being paid to do.

When I was a seagoer I was also on call when I was asleep - but on call 24 hours a day for weeks at a time. My crew were operating a 6 hours on / 6 hours off watchkeeping pattern (with extra duties during part of the "6 off" period) - also for weeks on end. Please do not assume I know nothing about watchkeeping or shift patterns.

[brum]

I too have worked the watchkeeping system at sea. And I have simply tried to explain to you the difference between firefighters and normal night shift workers. I haven't assumed anything about your knowledge of shift working, but you clearly haven't worked night shifts on a fire station, as I have.

You're right to say that firefighters on station have to drive at speed to get to an incident as quickly and safely as possible. When the bells go down, they dress and are on their way in seconds. In London, residents can expect a very speedy response, not only because of this, but also because the level of fire cover is very good - this is one of the big reasons why firefighters are so angry, because they believe that the changes are a pre-curser to a reduction in this fire cover.

Fire Officers mobilised from home do not have to arrive so quickly, but they have to drive to incidents on the 'blues' and can have a very responsible role to take when they get there - making life or death decisions possibly. The differences you claim aren't that great.

[boosboss]

In support of the industrial action, but the next one on Guy Fawkes night? Not sure that won't be an own goal by the FBU!

[DaveR]

The fact that a fire met with an inadequate response because LFB were on strike does not make any difference to whether the strike is justified or not - as Iancoubert said, it's either firefighters or management fault. He blames management, unsurprisingly, and he and others say 'resume fair negotiation'. But negotiation has got nowhere, because of the firefighters intransigence. So I blame firefighters.

[Loz]

I've just read that the strike will be on Bonfire night. I don't know much on who is right and who is wrong in this dispute, but this is going to lose the firefighters a lot of support. It is just completely irresponsible.

Why do unions do this? It's like when BA cabin crew thought about striking over Christmas. Inconvenience the bosses and the organisation as much as you like, but striking on the stupidest day you can think up is just self-defeating.

Frankly, I hope the FFs lose now. Sod them.

[Pearson]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've just read that the strike will be on Bonfire

> night. I don't know much on who is right and who

> is wrong in this dispute, but this is going to

> lose the firefighters a lot of support. It is

> just completely irresponsible.

>

> Why do unions do this? It's like when BA cabin

> crew thought about striking over Christmas.

> Inconvenience the bosses and the organisation as

> much as you like, but striking on the stupidest

> day you can think up is just self-defeating.

>

> Frankly, I hope the FFs lose now. Sod them.

-----------------------------------------------

+1000000000

The FF's have just lost it for themselves by agreeing to this action.

Disgusting!

[Michael Palaeologus]

Remember, Remember the fifth of November

Gunpowder, treason and strike.

That will be all of the public bonfires and fireworks cancelled for insurance reasons.

It does seem a very spiteful act from the Fire-fighters.

Whatever the merits of their cause, this will lose public support.

[laincoubert]

The FB have assured London that they have cover in place to adequately protect London. If thats the case, then let the FFs strike and protest, its them losing the money and if there is no additional risk to London then thats just them suffering right! Mr Coleman has promised this is the case, all of london is safe, and all you anti FF people who believe everything he says must accept this too!!

Just bear in mind they only have a limited window (until november 19th) because if the management do not agree to any of their proposals by then, they either go on the dole or they sign contracts they are opposed to. I.e they lose either way!! They have to use everything they got and use it now in their fight. and this is a dirty and underhand fight on both sides!

Fire brigade has a obligation to protect london. If they believed that they were exposing london to any additional risk, then Coleman would certainly do the responsible thing and remove the threat of dismissal, return to negotiations and strike is over!!!!

New shifts will be negotiated and we can all move on to the next drama and forget about the Firefighters and their contracts

[Loz]

Iaincoubert,

You sound like you are in full agreement with this strike date and even sound like you are relishing the havoc, and probably deaths, this will cause.

I don't know, nor care, who Mr Coleman is. I just know that every person that dies in a fire on bonfire night will be the fault of the firefighters union and those that supported this strike date. If the fire fighters had any sense and any decency, they'd be telling their union to change the date of the strike PDQ. They might even get a bit of good PR if they did.

Fire fighters used to above this, and the public respected them for that. I remember a strike a few years ago when they were all on the pickets, but all pretty much 'on call' and ready should the worst have happened. Nowadays they pick the single worst day of the year to strike. I think the word I need rhymes with 'bar soles'.

As I said, I have no idea of who wants what in this dispute. I just hope now the fire fighters lose. Badly.

[laincoubert]

They will lose, whether you wish it or not. They were always on a loser, I just respect people who stand up to bullys and their right to defend their legal contracts.

The management could always take the moral high ground and retract 188 (strike over). But they refuse to as they have too much contempt for their workers to care about the possible innocent victims during the strike.

How are the management any less culpable??

[frierntastic]

The firefighters greta pleasure at putting their own working conditions before public safety is appalling. I am sick to death of this union bragging about how much disruption their strikes will cause; are you really happy that millions of people's lives will be less protected so you can keep your archaic working practices?

I, like most others, grew up respecting firemen. But this vindictive, pathetic, dangerous display of self-absorbed selfishness is utterly abominable. How dare you play with lives over your own working conditions?

If, and maybe when, someone gets injured or killed on November 5, will FF justify it by pointing at their contracts and muttering about 188s? Will that make it alright?

[Marmora Man]

Management is less culpable because it has consistently presented a rational proposal to modernise working patterns that will improve productivity, reduce problems by changing shift changeover timings, a system that independent reports will give firefigters improved social time with their family.

Throughout it appears that the FBU has refused to consider or negotiate. One party is being rational and using the legal options open to it, the other party is being intransigent and trying to portray the strike as being about the Section 188 action - it's not. The strike is about the unon's refusal to accept change.

If Ian Coulbert or others would pos details of the FBU alternative proposals to the management proposal we could all decide which party is making the best case. However, all I've seen from supporters of the strike are claims of bullying, of political interference but no argument that critiques the management proposal.

So a challenge to all those supporting the strike - what alternative proposals are you making? Maintaining status quo is not an option. If the management is being truly unreasonable then demonstrate this by letting us here your reasonable alternative.

EDited to correct typos and make a further point

[Kbabe01]

Loz you make me sick! YOu have no idea what the dispute is about yet you want the FF to loose?? You are everything that is wrong with this country.

[Loz]

Kbabe01 - at least my opinion is not going to get anyone killed.

Yours is.