Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[Huguenot]

The demand levels are identified by actual stats in the data, not by anecdote - so are you saying they simply made it up?

Nevertheless, the management solution isn't simply designed according to levels of demand, but also with respect to family friendliness, productivity, documented studies of fatigue, a nod in the direction of the working time directive and many others.

The 'evenings' you appear to be losing don't seem to be the case at all - as the 'family time' increases from 11 hours to 13 hours.

They're all there in the document.

Forgive me for being blunt, but it seeems that your position is mostly supported by accusing the guys who disagree with you of being liars?

I'm probably wrong here, so is it possible that you could come back with data that is thoughtfully and clearly repesented as the management case has been in order to prove their data wrong? The FBU must have something yes?

Perhaps this is why the FBU don't be appearing to attract so much support from the general public?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Stats are wonderful for many things, but convincing the general public?

I doubt it

[Huguenot]

Well, I don't think you'd even need the stats in this case, most people would intuitively guess that rush hour's not a bright time to be changing shift.

They'd also guess that 9 hours wasn't a great break between shifts, that increased family time is a good thing etc. etc.

All the stats are there for, is to rebut an accusation of 'lying' that doesn't help anyone.

[DJKillaQueen]

Exactly my point too H. An arguement based on no evidence or at least predicted figures are just claims. From everything I have read here I am swaying to the view that the objection to the change of night shifts is an objection to an end of the practise that allowed FF's to sleep for a good deal of their night shift and work a second job during the day (unless the fire service or FFs can provide evidence an based argument to prove that wrong).

[brum]

Have you the evidence to back your claims, DJKQ? Unless you do, how can we believe you?

[DJKillaQueen]

It's well known that some ffs have second jobs. I can't think of many full time jobs where that is possible. So the only conclusion can be that the night shift complete with beds is what makes that possible.

I've worked nights before and my employer never provided beds for me to kip in. If you are at work you are at work. Having no fire to fight is not any justification for sleeping on the job. So in that respect the fire service managers are perfectly justified in changing that aspect of the job imo.

Earier someone mentioned doctors. The reason why doctors have sleep rooms is because they are working usually 70 hours a week...so that makes perfect sense. FFs are not working 70 hour weeks.

[Marmora Man]

I'm bowing out of this discussion but would point out as a farewell shot that we should be discussing the Fire Service and how to make it the best it can be and not discussing management / union battles.

Along with others that have posted here and elsewhere I was a serviceman. Mtual distrust in the Army, Navy or Airforce would be destructive and dangerous - it seems to be the same with the Fire Service, which should have an advantage as all its senior officers are drawn from its ranks, rather than direct entry, and have practical experience that they share with everyone else.

[Pearson]

Nicely put DJKQ

@ Brum/Supporters -

For sure this is only a minor part of the dispute, but:

It make me laugh when part of this argument is about fast response times in the middle of the night/closures etc.

But they want us to support them being able to have a good sleep during these hours?

Can you see the contradiction...

[brum]

MM - you are quite right that all fire officers start off as firefighters, however, just like the military, even the Fire Commissioner has a politician for a boss! I think that is where a lot of the distrust lies.

DJKQ/Pearson - sorry, but do you argue just for the sake of it? You two really are talking about something you know so very little about.

[laincoubert]

I rather suspect that the 12 hours between shifts will allow for more time to window clean than the current 9. Though family friendly, finishing at 2000, i think not. Especially as most of them are priced well out of london homes.

On the up side, perhaps a good use of the shortened 12 hour night shift can mean the end of them getting some sleep between emergency calls, I propose they do their fitness training at midnight in order to free up the important fire safety time in the afternoon, they shouldnt be doing fitness training during rush hour anyway, how preposterous!

We will squeeze a bit more out of them that way. And luckily for us, the paying public, as their 15 ton HGV appliances are exempt from european tacograph laws, we dont even need to let their drivers off the hook. They can darn well drive with the window open if they feel tired on their way to fires!

I dont have any "lies, damned lies and statistics" from either organisation unfortunately, but stats collated and presented by the employers pursuing a case for change will inevitably support their point of view. Here I go again accusing the establishment of lying, silly me! Did you know there arent actually any WMDs hidden in Iraq? Who would have thought that possible!!!!

Actually seriously, ffs are still going to sleep on duty at night at every opportunity they get, good luck to them. JThey will sleep just like any night worker such as nurses, security personal, doctors, and their control officers too who take turns to sleep although that is done on a strict rota basis. The the ability to function at night without sleep is not a luxury to removed be the authorities via a section 188, it is nature and necessary. Once in my youth I worked all night at a parcel distribution centre, I didnt sleep and it was possibly the worst night of my life. I have the utmost sympathy for night factory workers, but because they are stretched to their physical limits in order to shuffle parcels all night doesnt mean its sensble to do the same with every other shift working profession.

And I suspect far from being a cushy number sleeping on station, countless weekends away from family and friends must take its toll also. I know, they should get another job if they dont like it. Make way for someone who does!! I expect the new scab workforce are wet with excitement about getting to work nights and weekends soon.

For my part I have merely spoken to FFs who disagrre with the stats, though i suppose they inevitably would too in order to support their defence of the current shift or at least the alternative proposals presented by their union. I know who I trust more though.

If you believe changing shift at 0900 seems impractical then perhaps you didnt understand my explanation or simply think that I am lying. However to reiterate the transition from one watch to the next is genuinely seemless however one hour after change over staff shortages occur and cause disruption. These shortages will occur at 0900 on the proposed system. Though forgive me for repeating myself, I am also lead to understand 0900 doesnt in reality represent any sort of peak in expected FF demand anyway so the whole point is moot anyway.

[DJKillaQueen]

sorry, but do you argue just for the sake of it?

Just putting forward a viewpoint. Not everyone agrees with every aspect of the dispute/ and that's from both sides, union and management. Doesn't make any of us either totally right or wrong in our views....and that includes everyone.....

I thinks it's obvious that this dipute is not a straightforward black and white issue, and that is what makes it difficult to deliver total support one way or the other.

[DJKillaQueen]

I have the utmost sympathy for night factory workers

Jeez...if you work nights you sleep during the DAY.....millions of people do it off and on.....you still get the sleep you need.

[expat]

> sleep on duty at night at every opportunity they get, nt worker such as nurses

AFAIK the nurses here do not sleep at night they certainly do not have beds

[laincoubert]

http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/night-shift-nurses-must-be-allowed-to-take-naps/1737208.article

I stand corrected. Yet doctors do? Seems a bit unfair. Doesn't Change the fact that sleep deprivation is bad. I wouldn't want a tired fireman driving their lorry any more than a tired nurse bandaging my arm or even a tired bin man collecting my refuse.

[DJKillaQueen]

Yeah but why would they be tired working a 9 hour as opposed to 15 hour shift? If you work nights you sleep during the day.....like every other night worker does.

[Kbabe01]

A man has died following a fire in a sheltered accommodation block in Balham this afternoon. Four fire engines and around 20 firefighters attended the incident, which was in a ground floor flat of the Block in Bedford Hill.

The Brigade was called at 1534 and the fire was under control by 1632.

Crews from Tooting, West Norwood, Norbury and Clapham fire stations attended the incident. The cause of the fire is being investigated. Tooting fire station has had one of it's 2 fire engines commandeered by the management this last week. Who knows the outcome of this fire had 2 fire engines been available from TOOTING!!!

[legalbeagle]

Kbabe01 - that's really really sad. And it must be extremely upsetting for the firefighters, who must have tried so hard to save his life. I hope that at least none of them were hurt, it sounds like it was a serious incident.

[laincoubert]

I'm not a doctor or a shift worker. I sleep well 6-7 hours a night but I still try to nick a couple more hours in the afternoon too. All I know is I'm fit and healthy but I wouldn't cope working during the night no matter how much time I gave myself to recover in the day. Guess I'm not tough enough to be a ff or a nurse!

[*Bob*]

It's a shame that - for obvious reasons - firepersons aren't able to 'fess-up that the current shift patterns add a supplementary appeal to the profession. Acknowledging this appeal won't somehow make them any less committed, nor does it even mean that the way it works now is flawed and needs changing.

It's a shame because I think it's this aspect - the continual dismissal of that (w)elephant in the room - that doesn't ring true with an increasing number of Joe Public.. and is managing to do the seemingly impossible: diminish support for people who are totally prepared to risk their lives to save total strangers FFS!

"Yes, we are prepared for the possibility that we might actually burn to death at some point in our career, but as compensation it would nice to have a more appealing shift pattern."

Is that really so bad?!

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Kbabe01 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> EXAMPLE EXAMPLE EXAMPLE

>

> If my house is on fire in dulwich at 2am in the

> morning and me and my family are trapped, id

> rather not wait for a fire crew to drive from

> chelsea thanks. Not when theres a perfectly good

> station at peckham or forest hill. Thats what

> will happen tho.

I know this is the East Dulwich Forum but why Peckham and Forest Hill as the examples? Maybe Barbican or Biggin Hill might have been better examples. If, and I emphasise if, closures were being discussed by the Brigade now, it would be these type of stations being looked at for night time closures. Lets face it Barbican as a district virtually shuts once the office workers go home and Biggin Hill would have been part retained by now if enough volunteers had been forthcoming a few years back after all.

[zephyr]

Without reading the whole thread, I note that doctors and nurses have been brought into the discussion.

Doctors no longer work the hours they used to. Since 2009 they have been limited by law to 48 hours per week (European Working Time Directive). They work shift patterns similar to other health service workers (increasingly 12 hour shifts) such as nurses and midwives - on call rooms are no longer available. Nurses and midwives do a 37.5 hour week.

In my area, midwives have done 12 hours shifts for about 12 years and most prefer it (nights are 20:00 to 08:00). Anyone doing night shifts in the NHS are expected are expected to sleep between the shifts and there is no facility to sleep during shifts.

On their days off nurses and midwives can do what they like and a fair few will do extra shifts (bank and agency but NOT overtime as it is not generally allowed in the NHS).

I do not understand why there is such a problem with changing the shift patterns for firefighters

FWIW I don't approve of striking for whatever reason in whatever job - it just does more damage (financial/credibility etc) than good

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

laincoubert Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is everyone missing my point. The management

> haven't given one single good reason TO SIGN the

> new contracts......

Not quite true Iain. Don't you remember management provided detailed explanations, even in power point format, for the change in start and finish time. The one showed the increased availability of hours for productive work and, oh, that graph that showed the call peak around the current change of shift time when appliances are more likely to be off the run. You could always run a report query in your station diary to see your call rate graph.

> Who in their right mind would sign

> a contract which didn't benefit anyone at all........

Maybe the 21% that didn't vote in the ballot or the 21% that did vote but against the action. Or maybe those who are leaving the FBU as a result of this dire situation.

> By the way the new

> contract will double the number of evenings you

> work and not benefit anyone at all........

What about the two evenings gained from the later night shift start time?

[Kbabe01]

BBB i used CHELSEA because my brother is stationed there. PECKHAM and FOREST HILL because they are either side of DULWICH which is where i was when i wrote the post. Not that it actually matters because it was an EXAMPLE.

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

laincoubert Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Firstly busiest for who? The FF's I know, and I

> have spoken to several now, swear blind (i do not

> know whether statistics are availabale or could be

> trusted depending upon their source) that they are

> no more likely to pick up a call around these

> times than at any other time......

I'll refer you back to my earlier post. You can obtain precise figures by running a report from your station diary: it will even present it a a graph if you wish. Oh! and of course there are other programs such a imapping, although I think that has been updated since the introduction of the electronic fire reporting process (instead of the old paper FDR1). Which gives you an indication of the source of this data - yours and every other fire station in London linked to the National Incident Recording System .

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>.....it seems to be the same with the

> Fire Service, which should have an advantage as

> all its senior officers are drawn from its ranks,

> rather than direct entry, and have practical

> experience that they share with everyone else.

Poachers turned gamekeepers. Read into that what you wish. :-)