Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[Fuschia]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> As I understand it the point of dispute is over

> shift patterns - with the present being 2 9 hour

> day shifts followed by two 15 hour night shifts

> followed by four days off - which averages out at

> 30 hours a 5 day week. Management has proposed two

> 12 hour day shifts followed by two 12 hour night

> shifts followed by four days off - which averages

> at 30 hours for a 5 day week.

Now imagine you live in Kent (which many SE London FF do as they can't afford to live in London) and add on a 75-90 min commute. Those 12 hour days would make for a very long day, an unsafe journey home, and rarely seeing their families...

[david_carnell]

What field of work was this MM?

Emergency services? I'd rather not have firefighters working 14 days solid if it's ok by you. That would seem to produce rather tired fire fighters.

But no one has answered me why we all have to be dragged down to have equally poor pay and conditions in the workplace? Instead of looking at a group of workers and saying "I wish my work offered that - how can I get that too?" instead we hear "I'm jealous - disgraceful - ensure we are all equally screwed by our employers". It seems absurd.

[Pearson]

Fuschia Wrote:

------------------------------

> Now imagine you live in Kent (which many SE

> London FF do as they can't afford to live in

> London) and add on a 75-90 min commute. Those 12

> hour days would make for a very long day, an

> unsafe journey home, and rarely seeing their

> families...

________________________________

I can absolutely imagine this as many of my colleagues also commute from Kent and Essex for similar reasons.

And yes for sure it's a long day (not sure how it's 'unsafe') and again we all rarely see our families.

This is a ridiculous excuse. Move out of London if you don't like it!

For for an awful lot us this is the norm already...

[Kbabe01]

All 5,557 firefighters in London are threatened with the sack if they don?t accept new contracts. Contracts which not only threaten firefighters? jobs, conditions of work and family lives, but will open the door to the destruction of the fire service as we know it. London is the biggest brigade in the country. If they get away with this here, they?ll go for the rest of the country. The current start and finish times have been in place since 1979 and the work we do today has changed dramatically. We don't just respond to fires any more. Firefighters train for and attend a much wider range of incidents such as flooding, collapsed buildings, chemical incidents etc, and work harder than ever before to prevent fires from happening in the first place. All we are asking is that our contracts are honored and we are not sacked so they can issue new ones. If your boss told you your normal 9 to 5 hours were changing to 9 to 9 with no discussion would you fight? i expect you would.

[DJKillaQueen]

add on a 75-90 min commute. Those 12 hour days would make for a very long day, an unsafe journey home, and rarely seeing their families...

A lot of people in many jobs already travel and work those hours....

I think Dave C does have a point though in the sense that we get the working conditions we put up with.

However my public sector Union for example is useless because it's membership isn't high enough to bring any kind of impact in an industry where 80% of workers are contract or freelance. People are just too frightened of never working again to rock the boat.

So it's not as easy as just saying workers should stand up. Lack of job security is a major reason why many do not stand up in the Public Sector.

[Kbabe01]

Pearson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Fuschia Wrote:

> ------------------------------

> > Now imagine you live in Kent (which many SE

> > London FF do as they can't afford to live in

> > London) and add on a 75-90 min commute. Those

> 12

> > hour days would make for a very long day, an

> > unsafe journey home, and rarely seeing their

> > families...

> ________________________________

>

>

> I can absolutely imagine this as many of my

> colleagues also commute from Kent and Essex for

> similar reasons.

> And yes for sure it's a long day (not sure how

> it's 'unsafe') and again we all rarely see our

> families.

>

> This is a ridiculous excuse. Move out of London

> if you don't like it!

> For for an awful lot us this is the norm

> already...

Pearson i think its a bit different for someone who is responsible for saving a life? A split second mistake could mean your life or the fire fighters life. Im not sure you understand the type of physical effort it takes to actually fight a fire for 1 hour let alone 4 or 5. Thats without the traffic accidents in between. A 12 hour day for someone in an office in no way compares to a ff's 12 hour day.

[DJKillaQueen]

Pearson i think its a bit different for someone who is responsible for saving a life?

Which is like saying if an office worker crashes on the way home because they fall asleep at the wheel, it doesn't matter?

If you look at the stats for the number of incidents that firemen attend accross London, they are not spending every hour of every day attending stressful or dangerous incidents.

Haivng said that I persoanlly think 12 hours is too much for any worker and makes a mockery of the working time directive. France operate a 38 hour week by law...do they see their public and private sectors fall down as a result?

The truth is we have long working hours but poor productivity...anyway that's a whole other discussion.

[Kbabe01]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Pearson i think its a bit different for someone

> who is responsible for saving a life?

>

> Which is like saying if an office worker crashes

> on the way home because they fall asleep at the

> wheel, it doesn't matter?

In no way is it like saying if an office worker crashes on the way home it doesnt matter. I am saying an office worker being tired at work is a bit different to a ff being tired at work.

[Santerme]

Moflo Wrote:

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> There are a couple of stations where they (the

> management) have removed appliances and stored

> them away, leaving those station without

> applainces and firefighters deployed to other

> stations!

>

> When the strike is in force they will use scab

> labour to man the appliances they have hidden

> away!

>

> Your and your families lives are in their hands.

I know I ought to stay out of this as my brother is probably your boss....four years off his 30 in service and a senior manager.

I think his wife would quite like to see him as he is on 24 hour call and spends a week or so away staying at his FB flat before getting a break.

It is not just frontline FF's taking up the slack.

It seems to me we are getting to the French La Rigeur (sp) stage in this country.

[Marmora Man]

1. I didn't suggest the firefighters work 14 days at a stretch - it was an example of what others have agreed through negotiation.

2. If driving / travelling before / after a 12 hour shift is dangerous then how much more so is it after a 15 hour shift as currently done?

3. Given that fire-fighters are not always fighting fires then effective day shifts spent, at least in part, publicising fire prevention policies seems a good idea.

4. Given that, again as I understand it, here is no suggestion that these proposed shift changes will affect pay levels and offer staff a more balanced life this proposed strike seems to be more about "who's in charge" than a genuine dispute about Terms & Conditions.

[legalbeagle]

I have a huge respect for Firefighters in London and around the country, and any profession where they put their lives on the line every time they go to work. I think that comments along the lines of "that's what they're paid for" fail to understand just now incredibly brave these people have to be. If nothing else, the lack of empathy shown in those comments is shameful.

I know we all have to take the pain of the recession, and I'm not sure personally what I think of strikes as a general principle, but I do wish there was some way of doing this without giving the Firefighters a kicking. And I'd say the same about any emergency service. Let's remember that these jobs are all about public safety and your own protection. Anyone who has been in real need of their help will know they are grossly undervalued.

OP, I don't know if I support the strike, but I do support the firefighters and I hope they find a way around dealing with their issues without too much heartache. Industrial action is bad for everyone.

[Fuschia]

I think people are being very naive if they fail to realise this is about a reduction in the levels of service we all rely on.

In the words of my friend (married to a SE London firefighter)

"The main issue is that no-one has given any real argument for how this will actually increase productivity. They may be able to keep firefighters awake all night, but what can they actually do? They can't go knocking on doors putting up smoke alarms, or out doing drills in the early hours of the morning, any more than they could now. The real reason behind these changes is to save money by making it easier to shut stations at night!

Some of the stuff currently going on by management is shocking and will not stand up in court. Any fireman who normally 'acts up' but not officially promoted (ie. they're paid the rate tho),but has stopped acting up because of the dispute (they don't have to, its not in their contract) has been docked 20% of their pay with immediate effect, taking their pay lower than that of a firefighter.

They have taken 27 pumps off the run in preparation of strikes before they were even announced, leaving 27 stations as singles. A station that only has one appliance has to carry more equipment than one that has two (because the extra kit is on the other vehicle). These stations left as singles do not have this kit (in the main, the right length ladders). Fire stations should not be run if they do not have the correct kit, but any firefighter who has refused to man a vehicle without the right kit has also has his pay docked by 20%!

They have disciplined people for putting their views on forums such as facebook or for wearing stickers saying solely - 'say no mass sackings' - on their kit.

Much of this seems to be hidden by/from the press. Any shows such as tonight's LBC radio show make me honestly feel sick, with tory David Mellor cutting anyone off with a valid point to make whilst allowing his fellow Tory toad Coleman an open platform to put his point across. He is a clever man, and appearing to be unbiased to those who aren't in the know, but its just not true!

The strike threat will immediately go away if management take away their threat of mass sackings and enforcement of new contracts.

There are other details to this but they're the main ones. The photo was a bit of a joke. But in all seriousness no firefighter wants to go on strike. They are NOT fighting for a pay increase of any sort, they are NOT striking over a change of shift in principal (the union have put other, more practical hours on the table, which have been ignored). They are fighting to save London's firecover, because they know what's coming!!"

[Chick]

Good luck with your dispute.

[Moflo]

Thank you Fuschia. Well said. It has nothing to do with shifts or pay, when will people realise it is their safety that is at stake! Shoreditch have had appliances removed thereby rendering that staion useless! The fire authorities made it known that firefighters in fulham and hammersmith would disable the pumps if and when the stikes started. This is scare mongering! They have taken and stored appliances from all over London. I have to live with the fact that when my Son goes to work there is the chance that he will not come back, as is the same for all firefighters families.

As to whoever stated that they sometimes have to work extra hours for no pay and that they run the risk of a road accident whilst they commute, who is it that comes and cuts them out of the vehicle? A firefighter who has just completed a 15hour shift and is still on duty because some idiot can't keep to the speed limit because he is late for his tea!! Wake up London!

[Pearson]

"I have a huge respect for Firefighters in London and around the country, and any profession where they put their lives on the line every time they go to work"

Good point and I also share that respect. But to add some perspective to this, the RNLI are an entirely charitable emergency service. They are also on call 24/7. They don't get paid at all and share the risks on their lives every day.

Just saying...

[Dougal Mulldoon]

London?s firefighters will strike next Saturday (23 October) and again on Monday 1 November, their union announced today (Friday).

The firefighters will walk out for eight hours, from 10am to 6pm, each time.

It comes after the FBU union members voted 79 percent yes to strikes on a 79 percent turnout yesterday.

They are fighting their bosses? plan to sack all 5,500 of them unless they sign up to worse shifts. The shift changes would see the night shift made three hours shorter and mean cuts to night-time fire cover.

London?s firefighters are already taking action short of a strike. Their overtime ban has forced some fire stations to temporarily close, showing how far the service has been relying on their goodwill just to run normally.

But now the battle is really on.

And the clock is ticking. The mass sackings are not just a threat?they are a legal process that the bosses started back in August.

If the plan is not defeated then the first firefighters could be sacked on 26 November.

The fire authority bosses, led by crazed Tory councillor Brian Coleman, have shown all along that they?re spoiling for a fight.

Last month, with 3,000 firefighters from across the country laying siege to their headquarters in a protest march, the bosses still decided to push ahead with the plan.

And the FBU gave the bosses 24 hours to back down after their decisive strike vote yesterday?yet still they refused.

Instead they have been spending their time preparing a scab force run by private firm AssetCo.

The union has rightly said that there can?t be any talk of negotiations until the sacking blackmail is withdrawn. ?You don't negotiate with a gun to your head,? FBU general secretary Matt Wrack has said.

But the bosses have shown no sign of taking away that gun.

Now the union can, and must, beat them once and for all. And to do that the firefighters will need as much support and solidarity as we can possibly deliver.

[Trump]

Brian Coleman ? City Hall ? Place adverts for fire fighters in all job centres. Lots of ex-service men and women looking for work.

[waynetta]

SMOKERS worried about being rescued during the forthcoming Fireman's strike? Simply buy inflatable furniture. If you fall asleep whilst smoking, your ciggie will burn a hole in it and the escaping air will put it out.

[Applespider]

Is the reason that you don't want the 9-hour increasing to 12-hour because you can currently sleep during part of the 15-hour night shift (although you are effectively on call) but you wouldn't be able to do so on a 12 hour day shift since there are more alternate tasks to be done in daytime? So a daytime 12 hour shift would potentially be more draining than a 15-hour one?

I haven't done shift work recently but did recently go out with someone who worked 4 x 12 hour days day and night and it really mucked up his body clock and energy levels. That was an office job; I'd hate to think how he'd be if he'd had to put on breathing apparatus and run up and down ladders.

In general, I don't support strike action (i.e. the recent Tube strikes and BA strikes left me fully in support of management) but this one does feel different.

I also heard that the private company who are the planned 'cover' for the strike have been in talks for some time with the Fire Brigade about outsourcing some work to them. It makes me wonder if there's a longer term plan to reduce some of the night Fire Brigade service by shutting some stations at night (which by all accounts this change would facilitate) and use the private company to cover 'busy' periods. We've been through the local station closures with the police already. Using private companies for public safety seems to be going back to the days where you had your insurance through a fire company and if your house burned, if you weren't covered, they stood by and watched. I understand that's not likely but it still seems a step backwards.

The Brigade 'mothballing' engines for fear of sabotage is ridiculous. Why would the firefighters put their own and colleagues lives at danger since no-one knows when they'd be called out and if there would be time to rectify sabotage? Besides, if sabotage was proven (and I'm sure there's CCTV in key areas), that would be a sackable offence. That really does suggest that there's another agenda here.

[brum]

You're right to be suspicious, Applespider. These changes being pushed through are primarily politically motivated. The current shift system works because beds are available. The argument to remove beds is very dubious. In practical terms it serves no purpose to keep firefighters awake during the night. The other emergency services have a different role to firefighters, who may not be called out so frequently, but need to provide immediate, effective cover 24/7 because in a fire literally every second counts. Unfortunately some see the beds as a perk and should be removed. This has already happened in other brigades... and replaced with very expensive reclining chairs!

[DJKillaQueen]

To be honest I'm torn on the issue of beds. Do police officers and paramedics get beds? C'mon you are employed to do a job, not to sleep. There are millions of shift workers in the UK and shift work is usually set in blocks giving the body time to adjust.

My view is that no worker should be doing 12 hour plus shifts and that an issue accross the country in many jobs. The Working Time Drective means nothing in the UK. Long hours, yet we are one of the least productive countries in Europe for those hours worked. France operates a strict 38 hour week for most employees - and it hasn't killed her economy.

[Marmora Man]

Dougal Mulldoon Wrote:

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It comes after the FBU union members voted 79 percent yes to strikes on a 79 percent turnout yesterday. That you have majority support does not, of itself, mean your argument is right. It may mean that the union leaders have misrepresented the situation to their members, something that is hardly unknown.

They are fighting their bosses? plan to sack all 5,500 of them unless they sign up to worse shifts. This threat, which has been part of employment legislation since the 70's, only came about because the two parties have been unable to agree - or even agree to talk. It is not, of itself, the cause of the strike,

The shift changes would see the night shift made three hours shorter and mean cuts to night-time fire cover. Hardly - since the day shift will increase by three hours - therefore the 24/7 cover remains

London?s firefighters are already taking action short of a strike. Their overtime ban has forced some fire stations to temporarily close, showing how far the service has been relying on their goodwill just to run normally. Use of overtime work is a recognised way of increasing flexibility without incurring permanent costs of higher staff numbers. As firefighters have firstly, willing taken up the overtime, and secondly been paid for it - this is hardly a goodwill gesture on the part of the firefighters

But now the battle is really on.

And the clock is ticking. The mass sackings are not just a threat?they are a legal process that the bosses started back in August.

If the plan is not defeated then the first firefighters could be sacked on 26 November.

The fire authority bosses, led by crazed Tory councillor Brian Coleman, have shown all along that they?re spoiling for a fight. And over the last five years the firefighters haven't equally been spoiling for a fight? This is normal union rhetoric and does not advance the argument about shift patters

Last month, with 3,000 firefighters from across the country laying siege to their headquarters in a protest march, the bosses still decided to push ahead with the plan. Then the protest wasn't very helpful - constructive talks might have been

And the FBU gave the bosses 24 hours to back down after their decisive strike vote yesterday ? yet still they refused. Instead they have been spending their time preparing a scab force run by private firm AssetCo. Equally the FBU had 24 hours to back down - there are two parties to this dispute

The union has rightly said that there can?t be any talk of negotiations until the sacking blackmail is withdrawn. ?You don't negotiate with a gun to your head,? FBU general secretary Matt Wrack has said. Perhaps the Fire Service chiefs feel the same about the proposed strike action - it's a gun to their head. That's what strike action is about - threats of losing a service.

>

But the bosses have shown no sign of taking away that gun. And the union has shown no signs of backing off the proposed strike

>

Now the union can, and must, beat them once and for all. And to do that the firefighters will need as much support and solidarity as we can possibly deliver. Socialist Worker talk. The strikers do not have my support with this kiind of talk. Put together a rational argument as to why the move from 9; 9; 15; 15; hour shifts to 12; 12; 12;12 hour shifts is dangerous, costly, illogical or something else and I might listen and might support you but not before

[brum]

Like I said DJ, firefighters don't work in the same way as other emergency services or most other shift workers. This is just the nature of the beast. There are some night shifts that are so busy, there is no time to sleep. On others, not one emergency call is received and all is quiet. This clearly is good because it means the community is safe that night. However whether there are lots of shouts or none at all, the same level of response needs to be maintained. This is your insurance, and that is what you pay for in your taxes. These are long shifts but with a rest period it means that firefighters can cope. There just isn't a worthwhile argument to change the shifts, which have been operated for over 30 years now.

Remember that this job is high risk. It can make extreme demands on the firefighter, physically and emotionally, and just keeping them awake for no real benefit doesn't make much sense. Did you know that not very long ago the average life expectancy for firefighters was just 55? The hours and working conditions have improved a lot since those days and it's important to maintain them now.

[DJKillaQueen]

I hear what you are saying Brum but there are many other high risk, high stress professions, where people work up to 12 hours and don't get the luxury of a snooze. Reasonable breaks and rest periods are part of employment law for all employees. It's just my opinion but I can't see any reason why the fire service need special treatment in this repsect, especially given that some other professions deal with far more death and danger every day of the week. In fact statistically, deaths in the fire service are low and have been for at least the last 20 years, unlike many other industries, such as construction (which has significantly higher death rates) and the Police service.

And good post Mamora Man - the rhetoric (union and otherwise) you point to is also a reason why I am irritated by some of the claims made by those who are choosing to strike.

[ratty]

Has anyone who thinks they have the right to comment on this ever been pulled out of a burning house by a firefighter? I have! Slapped to the ground as I deludedly tried to run past flames streaming out of a burning window from a neighbours flat in New Eltham, then dragged to safety by a man taking the brunt of the flames and smoke.

That is the reality of what these people do. If you have ever used their services, or think your wife, husband, children might need to then think hard!!!