Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Chick Wrote:

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> Does that make you Gimli, Son of Gloin?

Oh no definitely of this earth.

[Moflo]

Sounds like a can of worms opened here!! I am really sorry that some people do not understand the firefighters dispute. I would agree that the FBU have failed to explain the dilemma to the public and therefore the perception is that the strike is all about shift patterns and pay. It is not, it is the fact that they are all going to be sacked. If the authorities withdraw this threat then no strike. There is another solution put to the Fire Authority but they are ignoring it. Most of the firefighter will accept 11/13, personally I dont see the difference in that to 12/12, and since the current shift pattern has worked succcessfully for the last 30 years why change it. They argue that productivity will increase witha 12 hour day shift. Not so,all relevent duties are covered. The arguement about training and specialist courses do not apply because most of these courses are outsourced and not covered in the station, they go to training centres. I would ask that some of you go and visit your local fire station and find out more directly from the people involved.

I am the mother of a firefighter and see the effects on him when he has had a bad shout, I could go in detail but won't. They all have horrific stories to tell but they do this job because they are dedicated men and women, dedicated to your safety. They are your first response! Some do have second jobs, because they cannot afford the cost of living in London on their wage. Some do not have second jobs. Some nurses have second jobs, some paramedics have second jobs. In this day and age needs must. The average wage for a fire fighter is far below the national avereage, and they risk their lives every time they go to work.

Please go and talk to your local fire fighters and hear what they have to say.

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Moflo Wrote:

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> Some do have second jobs, because they

> cannot afford the cost of living in London on

> their wage. Some do not have second jobs. Some

> nurses have second jobs, some paramedics have

> second jobs. In this day and age needs must. The

> average wage for a fire fighter is far below the

> national avereage

Not quite true is it Moflo ?

Average full-time weekly earnings in London - ?627 or ?32604 pa (National Statistics 2009 Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings)

Salary of competent Ff (achieved after completing their development record between 6 to 18 mths from training - ?28199 + London weighting ?4959 equates to ?33158 pa

Needless to say the national average is below that of London. And don't get me on to the subject of the level of training undertaken at stations as I have seen a decontamination dam left standing in a yard being used for 'training' throughout the summer.

[DaveR]

I knew a guy at college who decided that above all, he wanted to be a fireman. It was 7 years before he could get a job with LFB - there were 50 applicants for every post and generally first dibs went to guys with dads, brothers, uncles etc. already in. Why was it so popular? Because it has been common knowledge for as long as anyone can remember that the shift patterns are very convenient for working a second job and topping up what is already an OK pay packet without straining too much. That's why the firefighters are so desperate to retain the old shifts, and why they lost my sympathy long ago.

[Huguenot]

This sounds suspiciously like the core of the matter.

[brum]

No DaveR, you're wrong. The proposals do not affect the 2 days, 2 nights, 4 'off' shift pattern which you refer to.

Incidentally, the last night shift of the pattern currently ends at 9am on the first day of the 4 days off, so its not actually a day off.

I'm sorry you have such a low view of firefighters.

You too, Huguenot.

[Huguenot]

Sounds a bit more real doesn't it though brum?

All this posturing over something that sounds like a storm in a teacup, and then ah!... moment of clarity.

I don't think it's a 'low view', it's just realistic. People aren't angels or heroes except in children's books.

[brum]

No it doesn't sound more real at all. I just know firefighters and you clearly don't. I have not mentioned anything about being heroes - they are your words, not mine. What I do know is that firefighting is a noble profession and those in it are dedicated professional people who, to put it bluntly, willingly put their own life on the line to save someone else. And they do that every time they go to work. And yes, I know that there are one or two other professions that do this, like the Police and I have an equal amount of respect for them.

Yours and DaveR's sentiments are just a bit sad to me, because our men and women firefighters are not the sort of people you seem to think they are.

[Fuschia]

brum Wrote:

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>

> Yours and DaveR's sentiments are just a bit sad to

> me, because our men and women firefighters are not

> the sort of people you seem to think they are.

Hear hear

[boosboss]

I simply have a dislike for unions and strikes

That sums up alot of the posts on here for me!

I'm backing the FBU! Good luck!!

[*Bob*]

The main issue that people here in the UK have with FFs is that their job is too darned popular and that the people who do it seem to enjoy it too much. Bastards!

Paramedics, the Police or the RNLI may attract admiration, but no-one envies their jobs. We want our emergency services to suffer, goddammit! Doing an important job is not enough - you need to be doing it under unenviable conditions to boot.

[Brendan]

Apologies for not reading this thread first before commenting as it is all a bit too long* but I would like to share my thoughts having worked for the Fire Brigade during the industrial action in 2002. I have never worked with a bunch of people more genuinely dedicated to what they do. They spend hours constantly training and updating themselves and do a dangerous job without the pay or career opportunities that the police get or the support networks, housing, vocational training ect that the military get.

None of them were happy about or comfortable with the idea of going on strike in 2002. In fact I watched as a watch left their picket line and suited up to put out a fire that had started in a neighbouring building as they could and would not let a fire spread while they could do something about it, strike or no strike. They had put it out and were back on their picket by the time the army arrived.

*No doubt there are the predictable comments from those who have an ideological objection to any workforce having a voice (unless it is theirs obviously) and would probably rather see a return to fire plaques on houses and bugger those who can?t pay for the insurance, their babies can burn to death. And no that?s not reactionary rhetoric they are the basic facts of the consequences of services provided to the highest bidder, I?ve seen it in practice in my own country.

[laincoubert]

FF's do enjoy a certain kudos, and automatic respect and great populaity from many (though not quite so many as I thought after reading some of these posts) members of the public. The job is exciting and the gratitude from those they help and the feeling of satisfaction of doing something worthwhile means this is understandably a very popular vocation! My aim in life has always been to enjoy everything I do, including work where possible. Should we slaughter them for this?

I suspect the reality of life as a FF is far from glamourous. I lost my home in a fire and saw the conditions that they work in, buring the blaze, and during the hours of clearing up. Incidently this clearing time took hours as they removed all the burnt materials and fire damaged carpets, wood, furniture. They were in there for this period of time without and respiration equipment and were clearly breathing in a lot of fumes. I would be interested to know what sort of effect this has over their career on health and life expectancy. Hazard which just goes with the territory I know, but an additional consideration to those who wish to playdown the dangers of the job.

The dispute is very mirky, I do not trust what we are being told. The employers seem very keen to push the FFs out on strike. It smells whiffy to me. This stinks in fact, of a long term strategy, something they have been planning and something they want in order to action some underhand masterplan to destroy the service as we know it. Why push the workers to the point of striking over such an apparantly small change? Can this really be good for the tax paying public? Especially the less wealthy who must surely rely more on emergency services.

It is pretty obvious that the 3 hours on a day shift wont be used any better than it is currently on their night shift. They are perfectly capable of performing safety work and training within their existing patterns. However from their side, giving up 4 evenings a week instead of 2! I can see how that will enrage them when it is being proposed without any valid reasoning.

I am a builder, I only ever work for wealthier people. In homes where the electrics are certificated and new, burgler and smoke alarms are rigged to ADT, they can afford emergency plumbers and locksmiths. It is the less wealthy, those who live in shoddy homes with old electrics, old plumbing, too much clutter and dirt to live safely, should we not care about these people? Older people, I have more pity for the old than any other disadvantaged group in society, these are the people who depend upon the fire service the most.

In a modern civilised society surely we have a responsibility to look after everyone. If the fire service is broken up and replaced by a profiteering private contractor, and I believe that this is exactly what is really at stake here, then will they still answer every 999 distress call with an appliance?

Kids locked in flats, cars, burst pipes the list of services the brigade attend are limitless. In act I have been informed that already operators are refusing to send a crew to people stuck in a lift. Have you ever been stuck in a lift? I haven't but if I was I would be very unhappy if the brigade decided i should wait for a lift engineer to release me because their priorities no longer considered this an emergency.

Maybe if the brigade were being more honest over whats really going on, they would be able to work with FF's to achieve improvements and cuts to make the service leaner and more efficient. But to my eye, the management are deliberately peddling lies over the benefits of 12 hour shifts which are so flimsy, so obviously untrue, that FF's are inevitably furious that they should have their contracts torn up for no good reason!

I see this as one the FF's cannot win no matter what they do, they probably know it too. But no one wants to go down without a fight.

I support them because I dislike liars, bully's and I am afraid what we will be left with once this is all over if we the paying public do not demand a world class rescue service which is ready to help anyone all of the time.

[Marmora Man]

I am really sorry that some people do not understand the firefighters dispute. I would agree that the FBU have failed to explain the dilemma to the public and therefore the perception is that the strike is all about shift patterns and pay. It is not, it is the fact that they are all going to be sacked.

Moflo - you need to consider the events that have led to the point where management is threatening to sack firefighters and firefighters are threatening to go on strike. Root cause Analysis is a process that might help.

Essentially the employer has been trying, for some years - but without success as I understand it, to negotiate changes to work patterns with the employees. Whether there is justification or not for these changes is almost immaterial - the employees (FBU) have refused to even contemplate, let alone discuss and negotiate, the proposed changes.

This refusal to consider, discuss or negotiate leads the employer to initiate, under long standing employment legislation [dating back to the previous Wilson / Callaghan Labour administration] the threat of mass redundancies (aka sackings) from which they would then re-employ staff on new terms & conditions. It's the management equivalent of a strike. Both sides appear to be intransigent, both sides seem to deserve each other. The public deserves better from both parties.

As far as I can see from press and TV the majority, if not all, of Fire Service chiefs are drawn from the serving firefighters - one must assume they know the reality of life on existing shift patterns.

Heroes or villians the question of the shift pattern is at the heart of this dispute. Everyone seems to acknowledge that the shift pattern has remained unchanged for over 30 years.Since 1980 the incidence, type, location and cause of fires will have changed, as will fire prevention techniques, training and policy - changing shift patterns to reflect such changes seems at least a rational position to present.

My position is not about ideological support for "brothers and sisters" in unions or some form of anti union / strike bashing - I would just like a rational and objective debate that eschews arguments about bullying management, heroic firefighters or strong management , lazy firefighters - neither position is sensible.

[Huguenot]

I don't think anyone wants to play down the dangers of the job. This is just a dispute about contracts that these big burly heroes are trying to turn into a debate about why noone loves them enough.

That's one hell of a leap - to claim that a disagreement about FF contracts is actaully an attack on poor and vulnerable in society.

It's also a bit rough to decide that the Fire Brigade are all liars, and that there's some secret grand plan to lock us all in lifts.

I don't think it's rational to assume that the FFs aren't campaigning with their own best interests at heart. The fact that this strike coincides with a protest about pay freezes, pensions and that FFs don't like call centres comes as no surprise.

Anyway, does anyone actually know what's in these new contracts that the FBU doesn't like? I couldn't find anything on their website.

[DaveR]

Just to be clear, I have no sympathy with firefighters in the current dispute because I think they have a history of seeking to retain work patterns and practices for their own convenience rather than efficiency of service. That's perfectly understandable, but it's a luxury that has not been open to the vast majority of public or private sector workers for decades. It's also not inconsistent with firefighters being generally highly dedicated, professional individuals who perform a very important service, but in that they are not alone, and others have had to bite the bullet and change the way they work.

[brum]

Thank you to those posters above for showing your support - it is truly valued.

Iancoubert - you are right, breathing in the products of combustion (soot, dust, toxic fumes etc) over a long period of time can be very damaging. A lot of retired firefighters die too young due to respiratory diseases - my dad being one of them. The problems often arise after the fire is extinguished and we do 'damping down and turning over' which kicks up a lot of nasty stuff we breathe in. These days the policy is to wear breathing apparatus however in reality it is not designed for wearing during such physical activities as chopping away, sawing, shovelling etc. so firefighters seldom wear it. Normal respirators aren't ideal either, in that they shouldn't be worn in oxygen starved atmospheres. A lightweight short-duration BA set may be the answer but it's expensive. Sorry, I digress!

[brum]

Thanks for the clarity DaveR, though you are still wrong to suspect that firefighters are acting for purely selfish reasons. They care about the service they provide and feel that the sacking threat is bullying them into accepting changes which could seriously affect that service. To suspect the motives are for selfish reasons is being incredibly disingenuous to the firefighters.

[Brendan]

When working with the fire brigade one of the things that struck me was, contrary to every other place I have worked in, the generally selfless approach to what they were doing , particularly amongst uniformed staff. There was a definite sort of duty bound culture, granted not by all but it was certainly endemic enough to be noticed. It is one of the reasons I look back fondly at my time there. It is very rarely that you get to work in such an environment.

I think that is something that is difficult or perhaps impossible to understand for someone with the ideological point of view that Dave has.

[laincoubert]

Of course the FF campaign has FF's own interests at heart. They are being told to make a change they do not want to make. In my career, every single thing I do from the start of my day to the finish has my own interests at heart. Mine and those of my wife and chidren, who i am lucky to spend every single evening with, every christmas and every weekend. Looking after my customers is something I do as well as I can too, but even that has my own interests at heart, of course I like making people happy, but I like lining my pockets with prfoits too, and thats where happy customers help! I dont understand why self interest is a point of criticism, we are all looking out for ourselves.

Having looked into the FB changes, particularly the main sticking point, (start finish times) I cannot see where the benefits are to anyone. Therefore an employer who deliberately attacks a system of work imposing an alternative one which (and this really is pretty obvious and clear) is being presented without any genuine justification must be considered suspicious. Unless of course you do not suspect that Politicians (and political advisors in waiting AKA chief fire officers) are capable of point blank cold faced dishonesty, to suit their own interests.

If the chief was honest and said, "look guys moneys really tight. we need to lose a couple thousend of you, we think we can get away with having less of you on duty at night and running with less stations/machines and personnel on the machines too. Its going to be tough, but help us out the money just isnt there to carry on as we are"

Now if he said that, then the FBU and FFs would have little option but to work out a way to achieve this. It really would be tough, because Health and safety already tie their hands in so many ways forcing them to adopt inefficient procedures so they can tick safe systems at work boxes.

But no chief officer has said "I want you fitting more smoke alarms and doing more training. If you work longer days and shorter nights then you will be able to achieve this"

Excuse me but there are still only 24 hours in a day. How that 24 hours is divided up differently doesnt give anyone any more time to perform these duties. FF's can squirt water, tie knots and climb ladders in their yard at 1900 regardless of whether this is an hour before home time, or an hour after starting their shift, the same goes for 0800. FF's know this more than anyone and so does their chief.

So.....if chiefy is deliberately provoking FFs by pushing this system on them, and arousing their anger by using a deliberately flaky arguement then, and only time will tell as I suspect colemans strategies are for shaping future years not future months, we will see this service rebuilt entirely.

If army regiments dating back hundreds of years can disappear off the map, and privatisation infest every other national institution then there is little hope for the fire service.

My worry is this the likes of a debt ridden firm like Asset co running the service full time. Lets face it, the fire brigade is a really expensive insurance against problems. They do not generate any money at all, they cannot. They swallow up loads of tax payers money to provide insurance cover against a range of accidents and disasters.

A profiteering privatised Fire service will need to pay its shareholders from government budgets and they will achieve this by shunning the millions of little jobs FF's do for people at the moment.

Apologies for ranting and speculating so much, but I am convinced there is more to this story. Just changing a few hours in the day is a big deal for the FFs who lose additional evenings with their families, but it is not a big deal for the employers who stand to gain nothing on the surface. yet still they push them to the picket lines.

I for one like the service we have at the moment and do not wish it to deteriorate so I support the FF's and wish them the luck they will need

[DJKillaQueen]

But to be fair here all apects of this debate have elements of truth. Surely to suggest that every FF is striking for altruistic reasons (i.e. for our safety) is a bit much. There are clearly other issues at hand which are directly about (whether rightly or wrongly so) changing some of the working structures and those (whatever the sector or industry) are always aout making savings and are always opposed by employees and unions (often for reasons of self interest).

I think where there is a lack of support, it is because too many people in this country are not having a good time in employment, with no job security, no pension provision, long hours and so on. It's hard for many people to support public sector workers whilst they themselves are struggling in jobs with little say over what their employer may or may not do.

Personally I don't want to see anyone lose their job, or to see anyone's quality of life reduced by overly demanding work practises but cuts/ savings will have to be made somewhere. Accepting a pay freeze is not going to be enough (and cuts no ice with the millions of private sector workers who NEVER get year on year pay rises, if they get any kind of pay rise at all).

[DaveR]

Good post DJKQ (but you will find that people with, for example, Brendan's ideological point of view find it difficult to see the world in anything other than black and white, good and evil, bosses and workers, can or can't afford a house in East Dulwich etc.)

[laincoubert]

DJKQ does sum it up quite well.

But please remember this dispute began more than 5 years ago, before the recession/banking crisis unemployment rises etc. and under a labour government.

The long term goal to break the union and the fire brigade with a privatised version has been plotted over many years by a few ambitious men who have now picked their moment very well.

Choosing to push their agenda through now when the country is in turmoil and job security and money is so scarce is not exactly genius, but it is very well planned and sneaky. And by continuing to centre it on a seemingly trivial change in hours while doggedly denying any other intentions does a wonderful job of discrediting the union and the workers who are resisting this change.

I am not surprised they will get little sympathy or support under the circumstances. I suppose once this is over we will learn to live (or die) with whatever remains of the service.

I only hope that it will not end up like the police have. After 1700 I have to drive 10 miles and past 5 closed police stations (and two 24 hour fire stations) to speak face to face to an officer. When my car was robbed I was visited two days later to give the details. And when I phoned 999 to report yobs who had been attacking passing buses, I was told to call back on an 0845 number.

If the fire service becomes similarly bereft of man power and their resources equally stretched then, it could prove very costly to us and the insurance companies who rely on them to limit damage to insurable property.

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Posted by: Moflo October 15, 03:45PM

Moflo Wrote:

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> As a serving FF in London, this strike is the last

> resort and none of us, I repeat NONE of us want to

> strike, we have been forced to take this measure

> as we have been bullied and harassed into this by

> our boss.....

Posted by: Moflo Yesterday, 10:37PM

Moflo Wrote:

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> I am the mother of a firefighter and see the

> effects on him when he has had a bad shout, I

> could go in detail but won't......

Mmm!

[Ladymuck]

100

(Just for you, Quids:)))