Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

laincoubert Wrote:

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> We will squeeze a bit more out of them that way....

Yes that is probably right. But that is what increasing efficiency means: Not trying to sound condescending here. Let's fce it if we always do the same things we will always get the same results.

> Actually seriously, ffs are still going to sleep

> on duty at night at every opportunity they get,

> good luck to them. JThey will sleep just like any

> night worker such as nurses, security personal,

> doctors, and their control officers too who take

> turns to sleep although that is done on a strict

> rota basis.

I think you have summed up why this is such a ridiculous situation. I was in the job when there were controls at Wembley Stratford and Croydon and even then control staff used to take rota turns to get a bit of kip but for make ups. It was unofficial: management knew it went on but turned a blind eye. They know it goes on now and will in the future: let's face it they too were fire-fighters once. There is provision in the new working routines for an 'adequate rest period' on nights. Although lets be real here as, imo, the politicians wanted the beds to go. Although the replacement recliners are not the same how could any politician justify an argument to retain beds in a workplace especially when thy would have to court public opinion similar to that expressed on this forum. I refer you back to your comment above that intimates Ff's will still sleep on nights. Management know this but also know not a lot gets done after 8 once the yard gates are shut (remember they were Ff's once), they just want more productive time available during the day. And lets face it if you had spoken to crew and watch managers a while back they would have been moaning they haven't got enough time in the day and spend most of it in he office in front of the computer: I doubt they will be moaning about it much now.

And to close it doesn't actually matter which shift pattern is adopted as there will always be those that will oppose it: as they say you can't please all of the people etc etc...

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

For those of you that are interested please find links to publicly available documents that may fill in some of the blank space for you. The first two FEP documents, on the subject of Working Patterns for Operational Staff, are reports submitted to meetings of the authority covering such things as the business case for new working patterns and the associated research that supported it e.g. "The LFB has been approached by Carers UK which is bidding for funds to work with a few organisations to develop a support network for carers....if successful the LFB will have a cutting edge support network system both internal and external for our members of staff that are carers."

The last one is the Fourth London Safety Plan. Mentioned in the preceding reports, it presents the Authority's vision and plans over the coming years to "Make London a Safer City"

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/FEP1422.pdf FEP1422.pdf

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/FEP1491.pdf FEP1491.pdf

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/LSP4.pdf LSP4.pdf

Enjoy the read!

P.S. Hope you don't see this as clap trap Maureen

[Santerme]

I agree you have zip idea whether the second pump would have made any difference so that was a bit of a post to tug the heartstrings

My brother is the LFB Area Commander in South London I am fairly sure Tooting is one of his it will be interesting to get an unemotive idea of the reality

Kbabe01 Wrote:

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> A man has died following a fire in a sheltered

> accommodation block in Balham this afternoon. Four

> fire engines and around 20 firefighters attended

> the incident, which was in a ground floor flat of

> the Block in Bedford Hill.

> The Brigade was called at 1534 and the fire was

> under control by 1632.

> Crews from Tooting, West Norwood, Norbury and

> Clapham fire stations attended the incident. The

> cause of the fire is being investigated. Tooting

> fire station has had one of it's 2 fire engines

> commandeered by the management this last week. Who

> knows the outcome of this fire had 2 fire engines

> been available from TOOTING!!!

[Kbabe01]

BBB being a retired FF will you be applying for a job with Assetco? Just wondering.

Santerme is your brother supporting the FF? Again. Just wondering.

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Kbabe01 Wrote:

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> BBB being a retired FF will you be applying for a

> job with Assetco? Just wondering.

>

> Santerme is your brother supporting the FF?

> Again. Just wondering.

Kbabe01 As it happens I will be looking at that option but not until this dispute is settled - It might not sit comfortably with you that I am looking at the bigger picture, arguing against this lunacy and breaking the the cardinal sin of not agreeing with everything just because I rode an appliance: or as I have been told in private messages "sh*****g on my x mates". I do have some principles, however, and will neither cross a picket line or ride an appliance for strike breaking purposes. We all have different ways of seeing things and that is what valuing diversity is really about. i.e. not necessarily agreeing with the other viewpoint but at least letting that viewpoint be expressed with a little respect.

Santerme Thanks for your input by the way. You just reminded me of something else for those that live in East Dulwich. Some local info for them.

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/Lewisham0912.pdf

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/Southwark0912.pdf

[Kbabe01]

Thank you BBB that explains alot.

[Santerme]

Be nice to get the chance to talk to him

[laincoubert]

"Yes, we are prepared for the possibility that we might actually burn to death at some point in our career, but as compensation it would nice to have a more appealing shift pattern."

""Is that really so bad?!""

No its not, honesty almost always helps. I think they are so desperate to resist the changes, for many reasons including that above, but are so conerned about public opinion, that they are denying this very obvious, and valid reason to keep their current contracts and appealing to safety concerns which are probably an also true but secondary factor to them.

Likewise, the employers are desperate to win the PR war too, they have their stats and studies published to prove their case, but as a tax paying customer of the service, the one thing the employers are in denial about which might sway me is cuts. The bosses are venhemently denying this will lead to cuts, (coleman made a cast iron guarantee to this effect on the radio).

They argue for efficiency, but not cuts (budgetary savings). In todays situation,the promise of cuts and savings will be more appealing to the public than these efficiencies. Efficiencies usually do mean cuts, but in the case of the LFB what they are promising is merely for FFs to do more training and more fire safety work in the day, which they could already do in their longer night shifts, i do not see the difference.

I rather suspect then both sides are lying, or hiding their true agendas. FF's dont want to lose the system which presumably they have all built their lives around and consider this one of the few perks of the job.

Coleman knows that a huge budgetary cut will be coming, announced later today no doubt, and is preparing a structure which will facilitate this.

I see no benefit to me at present for the changes, and until these are presented to me in a genuine and convincing way, I will continue to support the FF struggle.

I will be supporting all the future struggles of police, NHS and other essential frontline sevices in the firing line, the people in these careers are essential to our welfare and directly affect us all at some stage in our lives yet they do not get rewarded with the many benefits that private sector careers offer

[laincoubert]

"Not quite true Iain. Don't you remember management provided detailed explanations, even in power point format, for the change in start and finish time. The one showed the increased availability of hours for productive work and, oh, that graph that showed the call peak around the current change of shift time when appliances are more likely to be off the run. You could always run a report query in your station diary to see your call rate graph."

Not true.....I cannot run a query report in anybody's diary. I can see the figures presented by the LFB, I can speak to serving FFs and I can take them both with a pinch of salt.

> By the way the new

> contract will double the number of evenings you

> work and not benefit anyone at all........

"What about the two evenings gained from the later night shift start time?"

Do you really think that starting a 12 hour night shift at 2000 constitutes as gaining an evening??? My wife comes home from her job at around 19:00. At nights when I go the gym at about 20:00 i do not see her at all until bed time. Thats my choice to go gym at 20:00, (and avoiding the wife is just one of the benefits). But to routinely lose 4 nights a week in a job which covers weekends and public holidays is obviously unattractive and going to put a massive strain of their family lives.

For me an evening is roughly 19:00 until about 22:00. It is the best time of the day for unwinding, enjoying a good bottle of cabernet, and socialising with my family and friends. I work mon-fri 0800-1600. I get my evenings everyday of the week and I wouldnt give these up for anyone.

If FFs are unhappy about giving up this most valuable time then Im not surprised.

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

laincoubert Wrote:

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> I see no benefit to me at present for the changes,

> and until these are presented to me in a genuine

> and convincing way, I will continue to support the

> FF struggle.

>

> I will be supporting all the future struggles of

> police, NHS and other essential frontline sevices

> in the firing line, the people in these careers

> are essential to our welfare and directly affect

> us all at some stage in our lives yet they do not

> get rewarded with the many benefits that private

> sector careers offer

And you are quite free and right to have that viewpoint but all I would ask you to do is not just wait or look for arguments from politicians from either side (FBU officials are politicians too) just look around you and see what has been happening over the last few years. There are many Ff's and officers who are absolute dedicated and keen professionals but there are also those who have given management the ammunition for their business case. Two quick examples: Why does it take the threat of a BA review or even having to resort to stage 1 discipline to 'encourage' individuals to carry out a basic A test on a BA set at handover - the piece of kit that most would say is the one that they rely on for their own life as well as enabling them to carry out a prime function. Another instance, that baffles me: why would anyone, when required to carry out premises updates prior to moving records to an electronic data base so fire crews have immediate access to the most up to date information available on the appliance on arrival at an incident, not bother to leave the station and do an actual inspection. If they had they would have found out the premises shut down two years earlier. Needless to say a senior manager stumbled across that little gem.

The list could go on but all I'm saying is that sometimes we are our own worst enemies and there are a few things we could have done better to give management less reasons to find more time for us to do the things we need to do properly.

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

laincoubert Wrote:

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>

> Not true.....I cannot run a query report in

> anybody's diary. I can see the figures presented

> by the LFB, I can speak to serving FFs and I can

> take them both with a pinch of salt.

>

I assume, therefore, you are neither a crew or watch manager because they certainly can. If yours don't know how to they can ring up IMS (information Management Systems) who will be only too pleased to talk them through the process as it is only a couple of clicks away in the reports section of the diary.

Hope that helps.

' Informnation is not power it is what you do with it that is.'

[laincoubert]

Mr Bish bash bosh, you have lost me a little. Perhaps you have mistaken me for an LFB employee which I am not.

I have friends who are however and they will no doubt enlighten me as to the failings you have mentioned and how relevant they are.

As a member of the public, and therefore paying customer of all emergency services, I am not in a position to get into the nitty gritty of what these people do/dont do correctly every day. My viewpoint is simply that I trust and respect the FFs I have spoken to a whole lot more than I trust and respect the politicians who have their websites and pie charts to prove their case.

I shall move my interests for now to todays announcements from parliament and how they will affect my life. But will be interested to see how this dispute develops, and to discover what new lows both sides will stoop to in order to score points over the other.

[Brendan]

Fire-fighters 'ey

Those bastards

[legalbeagle]

Very very very disappoiting to read that Bish Bash Bosh has had unpleasant PM's just for expressing an opinion.

SHAME on you, whoever you were.

BBB, I have no doubt you are big enough to take care of yourself, but that kind of BULLYING just makes my blood boil. And it's the kind of behaviour that turns these disputes in nasty personal battles that actually cannot be won.

GROW UP whoever you were and take part in this debate properly.

[Pearson]

That is poor form.

Name and shame!

[legalbeagle]

Not sure a witch hunt is helpful either Pearson.

Just a sensible debate between grown ups would do me.

[Pearson]

^You're right

[Moflo]

I'm back, have you missed me? I can't see that anyone has been bullied, except for FF's, I am sure most on here are big enough and ugly enough to take care of themselves! Me included!

[DJKillaQueen]

Totally agree LB. Forum debate can only happen because of different points of view. Bullying anyone by pm is just not on, and cowardly.

[Kbabe01]

Too right bullying is not on. He prob didnt help matters by posting sarcastic comments on an I Support London Firefighters web page though.

[legalbeagle]

Im not commenting on BBB's views. I'm not saying BBB can't stand up for himself. I'm saying that kind of abuse in a PM IS bullying, whether or not it upsets the person it's sent to, and it's not acceptable.

Let's have a grown up debate, shall we? We are all entitled to an opinion.

[Moflo]

LB, I make you right, If anyone has anything to say, say it up front not behind doors or backs. Back to the subject in hand! Hands up who support London Fire Fighters! Me!!

[Bish Bash Bosh999]

Kbabe01 Wrote:

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> Too right bullying is not on. He prob didnt help

> matters by posting sarcastic comments on an I

> Support London Firefighters web page though.

Just to put the record straight. Yes Kbabe01 is right it didn't help trying to get an alternative viewpoint over on the support site in question. I accept that was an inappropriate forum to express my views and as a consequence I have removed my profile from there. I am sure also the pm's were from contributors from that site and not this so please don't have a pop at each other. My mail address isn't viewable here but unfortunately it was there. It is of no consequence, however, since the address was created in order to register and is not my primary account but you can obviously understand my desire for anonymity since this site is watched I still have friends in the job who know my views and a family to consider.

Kind Regards, BBB

[Moflo]

Things have obviously got very heated over this debate. I started this because I felt strongly about the FF's situation and still do. My stance on this has been stated so no need to say again. Others have an equally strong view and whilst I do not agree with them I respect their right to express it. Please lets continue the debate and hope that the FF's and brigade come to sensible conclusion, on the side of the FF's of course! So BBB, Pearson, LB bring it on!!

[Ladymuck]

200

(still no sign of Mr. Quids - this is no fun :()