Dulwich MP Helen Hayes votes against the Brexit Bill

[Beej]

Big thank you to Helen Hayes MP for Dulwich & West Norwood, one of only 47 Labour MP's to defy the three line whip and vote her conscience. Thank you for having the guts, and thanks for listening to us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38835101

[JohnL]

Thank You

[Penguin68]

In this particular issue I hope that she didn't vote (just) her conscience but more importantly as a reflection of her constituents' wills. This was not a conscience issue (like hanging or abortion).

[jaywalker]

Very much appreciated - defying a 3 line whip is never an easy thing to do. East Dulwich should (and I think the vast majority is) proud of you.

Penguin, it has nothing to do with being a conduit of her constitutents' wills. That would be populism not representative-democracy. We elect representatives who then exercise their reason BECAUSE they participate in extensive debate inside and outside parliament so that they are more acquainted with the arguments than our busy selves, that dialogue includes those they have with ALL their constituents NOT just those who voted for them. I am so fed up with anti-democratic moves (such as the referendum) being banded about as the essence of 'democracy'.

[Penguin68]

I said 'a reflection' not a conduit. Under no normal meaning of the term can 'conscience' be a proper response to the EU issue (I would hope). The EU referendum was bound up with hard-nosed political and economic arguments about whether it was better for the UK to remain or leave the EU. Our MP (and a significant majority of her constituents, amongst whom I include myself), considered the political and economic balance fell on the side of remaining. I would hope that it was those arguments (shared with her constituents) that informed her vote, rather than some wishy-washy morality - and I certainly hope she didn't vote 'no' simply because she had voted no in the referendum (on an 'I won't change my mind because I won't change my mind' principle). She is a representative, certainly, and not a delegate - but 'representing' does have a meaning. MPs who act against the views and wishes of their constituents in very major issues often don't stay MPs long (eh, Mr Goldsmith?)

[Earl Aelfheah]

I did email Helen Hayes about this before the vote. I'm really pleased to see that she voted for what she thought was in the best interests of her constituents and indeed, the country. If only more MPs had shown this kind of courage and done the same.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Farage has called the elected MPs who have voted in what they believe to be the best interests of the people they represent, 'enemies of democracy'. He himself tried unsuccessfully, to get elected as an MP 6 times of course.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Are MPs who continued to oppose EU membership following 1975 referendum 'enemies of democracy' too I wonder?

[Beej]

You know what? Sods law - When I first started this thread, I had merely thanked Helen for listening to her constituents. Then recognising it's not just about that, I specifically went back and added the conscience bit because (as is written), it is both. Not in terms of morality as such, but in terms of having the courage to resist populism and to vote against something which in all conscience they believe will harm their constituents. Nothing 'wishy-washy' about that. Either way someone on the forum would've split hairs, because that's what people do on here.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The sight of all those MPs who believe Brexit to be damaging to those they are supposed to represent, voting for it anyway is appalling. I know exactly what you mean about conscience Beej.

[alex_b]

I got a pathetic email from Harman trying to justifying voting in favour of Article 50. It basically boiled down to Labour needs votes in the North so I have to vote in favour even though I think it's a really bad idea. Hopefully people will work to deselect Harman and/or unseat Labour in Camberwell and Peckham next election.

[DuncanW]

That's a bit harsh alex_b

I received that email too. I didn't agree with it or even really understand it, but didn't find it pathetic.

I hope that she doesn't face a move to deselect although at 66 she may not wish to serve for a further five years from 2020 anyway.

[Beej]

if by pathetic you mean "miserably inadequate" I'd have to agree with @alex_b.

[uncleglen]

Of course Helen Hayes is going to bum-lick you lot. And the 1975 referendum on remaining (we actually were allowed to join in 1973 after De Gaulle- who had blocked us- resigned)in the European Economic Community was sold to the people on promises like.... everyone in Europe will drive around in cars manufactured in England. Anyway it has almost become a federal states of Europe with Germany calling the tune.....

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> Of course Helen Hayes is going to bum-lick you

> lot.

Ah, good old adult debate, you can't beat it.

[Bic Basher]

Kate Hoey voted for Article 50 despite Vauxhall having the largest amount for remaining in the EU.

[James Barber]

It is good Helen has voted the way she has.

But a three line whip from a Labour leader who wont be a Prime Minister isn't that hard to disobey. Helen won't see any negative consequences from her voting. If it did look like the next government would be Labour I suspect the whip would have carried significantly more weight.

[Penguin68]

At least Hayes, Harman and Hoey had the courage to vote - and didn't suddenly get struck down by a mystery migraine. Labour politicians were between a rock and a hard place here. The majority (probably) of labour voters in England (and Wales) voted to go, but in certain constituencies a strong majority to stay. Do you follow the whole country or your constituents? Do you decide that a freely exercised vote should be ignored because you don't like it? At least we know what these MPs were prepared to do. We may, or may not, agree with it, but their heads were over the parapet on this one.

[Blah Blah]

There were 131 constituencies who voted remain and most of the 114 MP's that voted against triggering the article yesterday, represent those constituencies - so criticising them for doing so is a bich rich (especially after the Richmond bi-election). I thought Ken Clarke's speech was excellent (not that I like very much about his political career). I too am disappointed in Harriet's decision to vote in favour but it was a whipped vote and calls for deselection are a bit much. I certainly wouldn't support that.

[Earl Aelfheah]

That's true James, but it would have been easier to tow the party line. also, I'm sure she'll see get a lot of grief from the more distasteful elements on the leave side. Farage is already saying that MPs voting against the bill are enemies of democracy.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... she deserves credit for her vote imo.

[Seabag]

Bic Basher Wrote:

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> Kate Hoey voted for Article 50 despite Vauxhall

> having the largest amount for remaining in the EU.

Kate is a cunt

[Blah Blah]

James is right in what he says. And also, the referendum campaign itself cut accross party lines, so it seems perfectly logical that it would do so in subsequent parliamentary business too.

What Labour have to do now though is fiercely affect the kind of brexit we end up with. Labour should makes access to the single market a key demand and win the economic argument for it. The tories line will be whatever it takes to appeal to brexit views on immigration, so Labour should argue for other ways that disincentivise immigration, over sacrifising single market access. Then voters will have a clear choice between Conservative, Labour and Libdem (offering hard/soft and no brexit) in future elections, if that issue really matters to them.

Farage is just a vile hypocrit anyway.

And the election of Trump will also have a bearing on where we go as well. 18% of our exports are to America,and they have a trade deficit with us (of around $7billion). Trump isn't going to stand for that, nor does he want America importing goods - he wants to bring back mass US manufacturing (although how he will do that given the much higher production costs over China is anyones guess). So we could find ourselves in a position where we not only face tariffs into the EU, but also increased Tariffs on some of our exports to the US. That's 62% of our exports at risk of costing (10-20%) more to the customer. This is serious stuff.

[Mick Mac]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Farage has called the elected MPs who have voted

> in what they believe to be the best interests of

> the people they represent, 'enemies of democracy'.

I can see his point. The constituents everywhere have already voted.

[treehugger]

Impressed by Helen, disappointed by Harriet - who I have always voted for in the past. Thinking about switching to the Lib Dems for the first time in three decades.