A chip and a chair - all things poker

[danmaitland]

By the way, re the honesty of online poker sites...

Earthquake in the Poker World - PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker Shut Down by FBI

The online poker world has just experienced a massive earthquake that will shake this industry to its core. Four websites of the largest companies: PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, Absolute Poker and UB have been shut down and seized by the F.B.I on charges of bank fraud, money laundering and illegal gambling offenses.

While the announcement has left the poker world reeling in shock, it would appear that there have been some decidedly shady dealings occurring which have resulted in the charges.

Preet Bharara, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, along with Janice Fedarcyk, Assistant-Director-in-Charge of the New York Field Office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, unsealed an indictment charging the founders and payment processors of the above poker sites with a variety of offenses.

There is also a civil complaint against the above poker companies, their payment processors, five internet domains, as well as 75 bank accounts used by the poker companies and their payment processors.

[katanita]

Are you citing this as evidence that the sites have been screwing over players? Because if you look closely at the actual charges and allegations they don't relate to anything like that. It seems to be largely about technicalities regarding "laundering" gambling money by allowing purchase of merchandise, whether banks were aware that the funds being transferred were for gambling etc http://mashable.com/2011/04/16/online-poker/. So mine and ????'s points about the unlikelihood of online poker being rigged still stand.

This move looks to be stepping up a campaign against online poker in the States in general, which has been lobbied hard for by bricks and mortar casinos and Vegas businesses and the like. As I understand it will come down to an interpretation of the law which one side says makes online poker illegal and the other disagrees. As a poker player himself, I hope Obama won't allow these sites to be shut down but I bet (ha) there's a lot of money behind the anti campaign.

[pk]

danmaitland Wrote:

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> By the way, re the honesty of online poker

> sites...

>

> Earthquake in the Poker World - PokerStars and

> Full Tilt Poker Shut Down by FBI

>

if Full Tilt Poker has been 'shut down' why can still play (and indeed make money) there?

[pk]

katanita Wrote:

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> Are you citing this as evidence that the sites

> have been screwing over players?

what is it that they say about bad workmen?

[katanita]

You are playing from the UK pk, rather than the US, and I assume they keep those assets separate. From the sounds of it they've seized the domains and bank accounts, which effectively shuts down play even if the software still functions.

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/04/16/fbi-shuts-down-poker.html

I should say I know Dan to be a fine live player, though of course cannot comment for his online skills. Mine aren't up to much, but it's still fun even if I'm not making millions out of it.

[danmaitland]

Thank you sir for the endorsement - yours certainly are up to much - as is proved by my regular spankings this season...

I am aware that the sites dont seem to be being prosecuted for rigged software, I was merely answering a counter argument on here that they would not be dishonest as they are making plenty of money without needing to be dishonest.... appears they have been dishonest...

And the sites have been shut down in the US, but re playing Full tilt in the uk - that is currently impossible as they are jammed with uk players trying to get their bankrolls out and also when you try and log in they attempt to update you

and fail and therefore you cannot log in..... I wouldnt for one minute suggest this has any relation to the amount of players trying to get their money out...

[katanita]

Er, "sir", Dan??

Anyway, it would indeed be naughty if they were blocking non US players from getting in to withdraw their bankroll. But as for the the other accusations of dishonesty my point was that the issues they are being charged over appear to be technicalities and open to interpretation. They look more like a law enforcement agency (with shadowy pressure from somewhere) fishing for spurious reasons to close the sites down, rather than recognisable wrongdoing. Unless I've misinterpreted?

[danmaitland]

by the way, I think I meant ma'm not sir, apologies - I am not good with psuedonyms - hence the unimaginative title I assume here

[katanita]

:))

[danmaitland]

there seems to be two extra charges on top of the illegal gambling one:

'Founders of the US' three largest internet poker companies are among 11 people charged by FBI with bank fraud, money laundering and gambling offences that resulted in billions of dollars in illegal profits. '

bank fraud doesnt sound like it can be covered under illegal gambling. Anyway, who knows..

If the sites aren't out to get us then the goverment is, therefore my rampant paranoia is merely misdirected!

[danmaitland]

It also should be noted that a maitland family trait is to take the opposing viewpoint to the majority and therefore if everyone on here starts agreeing with me, then its almost inevitable that i will start defending the sites!!

[pk]

danmaitland Wrote:

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> but re playing Full tilt in the uk - that is currently

> impossible as they are jammed with uk players

> trying to get their bankrolls out and also when

> you try and log in they attempt to update you

> and fail and therefore you cannot log in

this isn't true, just to check i've played briefly there twice today

but should i really be trying to cash out my bankroll?

[MrBen]

Dan's right - his general point being this is typical US centric, protectionist litigation. And I'd guess that the US prosecutors interpretation of "bank fraud" is probably legal, standard practice elsewhere. It's just moving profits between different pots in the most tax efficient manner. It's what keeps Gibraltar, Dublin etc ticking....

[danmaitland]

it was definitely true for me that I could not get on as the update would not load.

I then deleted my old version but couldnt download their software again on to my computer as it had a virus in it and norton blocked it.

re taking out your bankroll, I would. But bear in mind it takes a week to clear so it would still be dependant upon them doing the work their end. I dont see a down side in trying. you can always reinvest later

[danmaitland]

you are right I have just managed to re install ft from.co.uk - by disabling my anti virus

[pk]

i see there's a message on there now saying that due to government action US players can't play for real money, overseas players aren't impacted and funds are safe

sounds like they've probably got a bit of a problem on their hands

[Annette Curtain]

Is this thread about gambling ?

Shame on you, your children need private dental care, not snaggly teeth.

* looks at snaggly teeth in mirror *

N:-S

[smallblue]

katanita Wrote:

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> Er, "sir", Dan??

:)

For what it's worth, my Full Tilt was working fine over the weekend. I've got no worries keeping my (limited) funds there. There's been talk of this being a boon to William Hill etc but I'm not so sure. This seems like the death throes of antiquated legislature. I honestly think the bricks and mortar casinos have much to gain than lose from online sites.

[DJKillaQueen]

These sites do not keep their main finances in America. They are companies based in Malta and various other tax havens. The only accounts that the FBI can freeze are those actually held in the USA and restrict the transfer of money to and from the accounts of US nationals with bank accounts in the US. Players and accounts outside of America are not affected.

[danmaitland]

Annette Curtain Wrote:

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> Is this thread about gambling ?

>

> Shame on you, your children need private dental

> care, not snaggly teeth.

>

> * looks at snaggly teeth in mirror *

>

> N:-S

contrary to appearances, not every middle aged white ex advertising director is actually breeding in east dulwich...

[????]

Anyone following the WSOP? Brits doing ok so far, one bracelet and a second in the first week. Couple of guys I work with going out to Vegas next week and having a shot at an event. Oh how I wish I was younger.

[????]

For All true poker aficionados?.and I may well be the only one on the EDF, the last 2 months have been dominated by the World Series of Poker and this, unlike the that other World series, is truly international with players from all around the World piling into Vegas to play in anyone of the 56 tournaments of various different poker games at various buy-in levels ($1,000 being the cheapest) to win some cash and potentially take a much sought after WSOP bracelet down. The great thing about poker is that anyone can enter these if they put their money down and indeed 5 guys from my work went over for at least one official event and the juicy cash games and smaller tournaments that are everywhere in Vegas during the WSOP, alongside with ?blow, booze and hookers??but what goes on tour etc.

Anyway, the culmination of the WSOP is the ?Main Event? a $10,000 buy in No Limit Hold ?em tournament that is the World Championship, which from 6,700 entrants at first by the beginning of this week this had been whittled down to the 9 final table who will go back and fight over the $6million first prize in November?anyway, my reflected glory story. Two guys I know entered the Main Event, both very, very solid players who have won reasonable amounts online and in tournaments and said the experience was amazing, one was on Phil Helmuth?s (think Tiger Woods) table at one point. Neither cashed so I said ?you both think it?s money well spent

then@, they both smiled, turns out they and a few Brit friends all stake each other as a bit of insurance and it turns out they each have a 10% piece in Sam Holden, the only English player in the final 9 with a guaranteed minimum pay out of $790,000 if he?s first out?they are both already looking at nearly $80k??gamblers, just love ?em.

I really wish I was young enough to go over to Vegas and take a shot at a WSOP event, but I?ve mortgage, kids etc and age takes the gamble out of you, for sure?(the final table are all 20/30 somethings?stamina and balls is my theory on why).

I know game theory, pot odds and the percentages on most outcomes. I can range player hands pretty well, I can 3-bet (hell even 4-bet), c-Bet, probe bet, checkraise, float light and three barrel a bluff BUT

I can rarely put ?100 in a pot that?s giving me 3/1 when I?m a 2/1 underdog or stick in all my chips when I?m 50.1% favourite?both positive EV play and therefore correct. Young dudes just do it without a care?..they?ve not mortgage and kids?they?ve still got the balls :(

[katanita]

Anywhere showing the WSOP main event highlights on TV/online?

[????]

You can stream it from the WSOP website I think or live on CCN November.

[katanita]

Thanks, will take a look when I get home. Pretty sure it will be blocked from work, boo.