English Nationalism

[jaywalker]

This is what that 'society' believes, of course. We are just average English people, more empiricist, practical and level-headed than those Europeans, and certainly more so than those 'educated' cosmopolitan liberals who would tie us to them.

I do wonder if you have simply taken the values expressed by those for whom you have contempt ('shit', 'shit', 'hideous' etc) and are now projecting them against them, as if it is you who are the more enlightened, cosmopolitan, rational, and so on.

The Europeans in tears that their life here is threatened, those (and many, in the confusion, not from the EU) who have been spat on and abused, the peril in which the United Kingdom has been put, the present danger of stagflation - all just scaremongering.

Those cities you glorify in your post all voted remain. Those areas that did not, do not have the same characteristics you describe. Well, what a surprise.

[Loz]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Scottish nationalism is focussed on self governance, and dominated by left

> wing policies.

All the 'left wing' policies are why, though I can see why Scotland could/should break away, they'll never be able to afford it.

And Brexit support was based largely on self governance, so that's not always a good thing either.

[Jeremy]

quids - I don't buy this "Scotland good, England bad" narrative that you describe, either. (Although IMO you exaggerate how tolerant we are as a country).

It's more a question of terminology. Growing up, nationalism for me was synonymous with the BNP (John Tyndal era), with their unabashed racism, policies of repatriation, etc. Which seems to have little in common with the current Scottish nationalist movement.

[uncleglen]

Patrick Cockburn is the worst kind of liberal. Everything he says is a veiled attack on Theresa May and the Brexit vote. He is nauseating. In England it seems, everyone is allowed to be nationalistic and praise their own culture- even to the extent of getting public money to fund it, and live in their own enclaves and eat their own types of food but if Brits do it in Spain for example, they are criticised (whilst their pension money props up the local economies)- and if you Brits have the audacity to show a Cross of St George you are racist, narrow minded, a football hooligan... etc etc. I personally know some Europeans, and I dare say there are more of them, who are abusing wholesale our benefits system. The 'single mother' and child in the council flat, receiving housing benefit etc. renting out the bedroom and sitting room to others. The child's father bedding down during the week with his builder mates in a separate flat and seeing his wife at the weekend. Large amounts of money sent out of the UK every month to fund their property in another European capital city.

No wonder they are crying .....

[jaywalker]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> Large amounts of

> money sent out of the UK every month to fund their

> property in another European capital city.

> No wonder they are crying .....

uncleglen, do you not understand that it doesn't matter at all how many Europeans you know? That is, the many you judge are abusing the UK benefits system? That this is not evidence of any kind? Or do you seriously think that casual empiricism adds to the truth of a proposition (the kind of nonsense propagated by the 'freedom of speech' exemplified by our national newspapers)?

if you do think your own observations, as such, count towards truth you are simply ill-educated.

this is because you base your self-certainty on an inappropriate metaphor. It is basically the Mercantilist one: money is 'sent out' (with the implication that somehow this means we are consequently poorer) so the container of our nationalism is emptied of wealth.

Suggest go to the Science Museum and look at the Phillips Engine. A different metaphor.

[JoeLeg]

Hey Uncleglen,

I assume you've reported all these people to the proper authorities? I mean, you've got evidence of criminal activity there, which is what benefit fraud is; it's a crime.

So you've presumably told the police and benefits office what you know?

[Mick Mac]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> quids - I don't buy this "Scotland good, England

> bad" narrative that you describe, either.

> (Although IMO you exaggerate how tolerant we are

> as a country).

>

Agreed - I think we (in England) are intolerant of BNP/UKIP labels and voting etc. But there is stall a fair bit of underlying racist intolerance in this country

I agree its potentially worse elsewhere in the UK, but in painting England as more tolerant, you may mean England's major cities.

[Alan Medic]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Jeremy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > quids - I don't buy this "Scotland good,

> England

> > bad" narrative that you describe, either.

> > (Although IMO you exaggerate how tolerant we

> are

> > as a country).

> >

>

> Agreed - I think we (in England) are intolerant of

> BNP/UKIP labels and voting etc.

Am I misunderstanding something about this Mick? UKIP got the best part of 13% of the vote in the last election. That's a lot of the vote and doesn't show intolerance.

[Loz]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> Am I misunderstanding something about this Mick? UKIP got the best part of 13% of the vote in the

> last election. That's a lot of the vote and doesn't show intolerance.

I thought he meant tolerance towards those that voted for them. "UKIP voter" has become a bit of a pejorative.

But then so has 'Sun Reader', 'Daily Mail reader' and 'Guardian reader'.

[Jeremy]

Does being a tolerant nation mean being tolerant towards the intolerant? I'd presume not...

[Jules-and-Boo]

yes - that's why we have education

[Loz]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Does being a tolerant nation mean being tolerant

> towards the intolerant? I'd presume not...

But then, does that also make you intolerant as well? It's a vicious circle...!

[red devil]

As I said earlier, with freedom of speech comes responsibility. If someone crosses a line e.g. is knowingly racially offensive, then it's not intolerant to say that person is being intolerant...

[Loz]

Getting back to the original point, are you saying all UKIP voters are racially intolerant?

[Jeremy]

Personally I consider myself to be tolerant of those who are intolerant towards the intolerant.

[JohnL]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Does being a tolerant nation mean being tolerant

> towards the intolerant? I'd presume not...

Well, not the Daily Mail - Rip it up. I found a copy

in Neros but some woman picked it up before I could rip

it up.

[red devil]

Loz Wrote:

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> Getting back to the original point, are you saying

> all UKIP voters are racially intolerant?

Me?...

[red devil]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Personally I consider myself to be tolerant of

> those who are intolerant towards the intolerant.

Does it follow that you're therefore intolerant of those who are tolerant towards the intolerant?... :)

[Louisa]

Ultimate irony having a conversation about tolerance, on a forum which is intolerant of anyone who doesn't agree with the social democratic agenda of the majority on here. Made me giggle.

Louisa.

[red devil]

What is ''the social democratic agenda of the majority on here'' Lou?...

[Earl Aelfheah]

We're a pretty tolerant country, but also a rather racist one. It's why there isn't a lot of open hostility, but still quite a lot of discrimination.

Although you're not meant to say it - I do think a lot (not all) of UKIP supporters are xenophobic in the true sense - they're deeply suspicious / afraid of 'foreigners'. Despite the fact that this kind of assertion tends to get shouted down, actually, if you just look at their own rhetoric, to me at least, it seems pretty self evident.

[Louisa]

red devil Wrote:

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> What is ''the social democratic agenda of the

> majority on here'' Lou?...

To shut down or belittle anyone who disagrees with them. All justified in the bubble, by likeminded thinkers who support anything and everything someone else with a similar agenda spouts. Rinse and repeat. Going around in ever decreasing circles, meanwhile in the real world .....

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

You would never belittle anyone hey Lou? Not blow-ins, 'yummys', 'Gaurdinaistas' etc, etc. No one much shuts down debate and people disagree all the time about all sorts of things. I'm not sure the idea that this is some sort of echo chamber stands up to much scrutiny.

[Earl Aelfheah]

That's funny - Louisa - one of your favourite phrases for people who have been brought in to the area 'upon the wind', has been blocked and now appears as @#$%&

[Earl Aelfheah]

... it's yet another example of the closing down of debate! By jove you're right Lou!