Brexit View

[keano77]

The EU freeloaders must have been disappointed the tune wasn?t Abba?s Money Money Money

[diable rouge]

We ain't got any, it's called austerity...SOS!

[robbin]

We've got more than most.

[diable rouge]

Whoopee! Never did fancy Venezuela...

[Alan Medic]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/deep-in-the-heart-of-political-unionism-lies-a-great-fear-of-betrayal-by-london-1.3650620

This could change things though I don't know to what.

[JohnL]

Sky News this morning listing the allegations against the Russian GRU as the US presidential election, attacks against business etc.

No Brexit though - that was obviously untouched. If we want to include what the Russians meddled in we can't cherry pick.

[keano77]

Think about it JohnL. If the ruskies wanted to cause trouble they?d be helping the remainer cause to subvert the democratic result of the referendum.

[diable rouge]

Think about it keano, the russki's anti-democratic aim is to undermine the EU and NATO as it sees them as a major threat to it's sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. Covert support for the PV would undermine that. If the UK doesn't Brexit it's a massive boost for the EU and democracy...#biggerfishtofry

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Think about it JohnL. If the ruskies wanted to

> cause trouble they?d be helping the remainer cause

> to subvert the democratic result of the

> referendum.

No, the Russians want a weakened EU, they have no interest in overturning Brexit.

ETA - and please stop associating all remain voters with your theory they someone is trying to take away your victory. That kind of thinking belongs on the comment pages of the Express and the Mail.

[JohnL]

LOL I don't think I could undermine the referendum alone however many times I tweet Jeremy Hunt - that's @jeremy_hunt :)

[keano77]

DR and JL

The ruskies want to weaken the EU as well. They?re not daft. A multi-pronged approach.

If I was asked to help Russia to sow discord (a sort of Mr Blobby edits the Sun away day) then a simple back of an envelope strategy would include:

- help remainers try to overturn the referendum result

- help the Visegard group?s gripes against the EU

- support the boat people to increase tensions in Southern Europe

- support Varadkar on the border issue and make him feel important

- support Italy?s populist government

- support Catalan independence

All this before lunchtime

[malumbu]

They work 9-5 trolling to undermine democracy in the Ukraine and any desire to join the EU. As well as logging on and off in office hours, they also take off public holidays. That is not anecdotal that is from official sources. Sounds like a good job, perhaps a number of our trolls here could apply to the GRU.

Slightly more sophisticated than this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41915295

Ironic that the UK is leaving the EU but believes it a good thing for the Ukraine.

[diable rouge]

keano77 Wrote:

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> - help remainers try to overturn the referendum

> result

But if successful that would be a massive positive effect on the EU if the UK doesn't Brexit. The russki's want to weaken and undermine the EU and NATO, not strengthen them...

[keano77]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > - help remainers try to overturn the referendum

> > result

>

> But if successful that would be a massive positive

> effect on the EU if the UK doesn't Brexit. The

> russki's want to weaken and undermine the EU and

> NATO, not strengthen them...

Possibly DR, but it would fracture democracy in Britain.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> DR and JL

>

> The ruskies want to weaken the EU as well. They?re

> not daft. A multi-pronged approach.

>

> If I was asked to help Russia to sow discord (a

> sort of Mr Blobby edits the Sun away day) then a

> simple back of an envelope strategy would

> include:

>

> - help remainers try to overturn the referendum

> result

Ah, so effectively anyone supporting a second referendum is helping Russia undermine our country? Golly, it all seems so obvious now you say it...

In fact, Russia has both openly and covertly supported Brexit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/10/russian-influence-brexit-vote-detailed-us-senate-report

[JohnL]

As far as I can see Britain is already fractured - the Remain supporters aren't backing down anytime soon and will be encouraged by the EU.

The only way out if Brexit goes ahead is for a hugely successful economy - because if we're rich we won't care that much. If we're poor I dread to think what will happen.

[diable rouge]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Possibly DR, but it would fracture democracy in

> Britain.

No possibly about it, it definitely would.

Our democracy wouldn't be fractured, I'd argue a PV strengthens it, however it would sow political discord within the UK, but there are other ways they can do that without strengthening the EU...

[JohnL]

Some of this is becoming incredibly personal mind you, there seems to be a lot of "when you go to jail" flying around from both sides (and by sides I mean groups who seem to be working on this full time).

Carole Cadwaladr after returning to twitter from a break seems to be in personal feuds with "The bad boys of Brexit" and Isabel Oakshotte.

[JohnL]

Guy Verhofstadt seems "triggered" too

"On Brexit, we will never accept discrimination based on skills and nationality. We will never accept an extension on article 50. Enough mess has been created by Brexit. Let's stop it! We will never undermine the principles of our Union to rescue the Tory party"

[keano77]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > DR and JL

> >

> > The ruskies want to weaken the EU as well.

> They?re

> > not daft. A multi-pronged approach.

> >

> > If I was asked to help Russia to sow discord (a

> > sort of Mr Blobby edits the Sun away day) then

> a

> > simple back of an envelope strategy would

> > include:

> >

> > - help remainers try to overturn the referendum

> > result

>

> Ah, so effectively anyone supporting a second

> referendum is helping Russia undermine our

> country? Golly, it all seems so obvious now you

> say it...

>

> In fact, Russia has both openly and covertly

> supported Brexit:

> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/10/russ

> ian-influence-brexit-vote-detailed-us-senate-repor

> t

That?s very silly of you Rendel. The article you cite does not support open or covert support by Russia for Brexit

?...This opacity, the report suggests, ?may have enabled Russian-related money to be directed with insufficient scrutiny to various UK political actors?.

?Investigative journalists have also raised questions about the sources of sudden and possibly illicit wealth that may have been directed to support the Brexit ?Leave? campaign.?

May, possibly and May is all supposition.

What was open and overt was a US President interceding on behalf of a no vote. What monetary value would you put on that and why didn?t the electoral commission raise that issue?

Further, given the fiasco of the Kavanaugh/Ford circus recently, the Democrats on the Senate are hardly to be taken seriously.

Edited for spelling

[JohnL]

I put my head in my hands when Obama spoke up ... a real mistake that cost remain votes.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > keano77 Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > - help remainers try to overturn the

> referendum

> > > result

> >

> > But if successful that would be a massive

> positive

> > effect on the EU if the UK doesn't Brexit. The

> > russki's want to weaken and undermine the EU

> and

> > NATO, not strengthen them...

>

> Possibly DR, but it would fracture democracy in

> Britain.

Russia has far more to gain by damaging the EU, and it?s a much easier target, than to covertly push for something everyone knows is not going to happen anyway.

You can calm down Keano, Putin?s not coming for you.

ETA - It?s also really naive to think that Russia didn?t agitate for a Leave vote in some way or other, but it?s also to be expected. Putin isn?t going to sit back and hope for the best if he can possibly influence the results. I?m not saying it was a game-changer, but every major nation does it. We?ve been interfering in foreign elections for decades if not centuries; why on earth does anyone think Russia wouldn?t have at least had a go?

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> That?s very silly of you Rendel. The article you

> cite does not support open or covert support by

> Russia for Brexit

Really?

"The report adds that although officially the Russian government asserted its neutrality on Brexit, its English-language media outlets RT and Sputnik covered the referendum campaign extensively and offered ?systematically one-sided coverage?"

"They reference University of Edinburgh research showing more than 400 Russian-run Twitter accounts that had been active in the US election had also been actively posting about Brexit."

"In addition, the senators noted that research conducted by a joint team of experts from the University of California at Berkeley and Swansea University reportedly identified 150,000 Twitter accounts with various Russian ties that disseminated messages about Brexit."

Would you like a lend of my reading glasses?

[keano77]

?...Overall the report breaks little new ground in terms of fresh evidence but says the picture remains incomplete.?

I?ve never met anyone who watches RT or Sputnik and trying to guess how these stations and US Twitter accounts influenced the vote is no more scientific than reading tea leaves.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?...Overall the report breaks little new ground in

> terms of fresh evidence but says the picture

> remains incomplete.?

>

> I?ve never met anyone who watches RT or Sputnik

> and trying to guess how these stations and US

> Twitter accounts influenced the vote is no more

> scientific than reading tea leaves.

Ah, so you've gone from "no evidence" to admitting there's evidence but you don't think it made a difference?

They are not US Twitter accounts, they are Twitter accounts identified as being run by the Russian government for propaganda purposes that were identified as part of Russia's interference in the US presidential elections and that also were used for pro-Brexit purposes during our referendum.

Seriously, reading glasses, Sainsbury's'll do you a nice pair off the peg for ?10.