Brexit View

[keano77]

True Loz but you can do better than that.

As you're not from these shores I think we can forgive you for trying to play down a Hunger March of worldwide historic significance in such crude numerical terms.

My point, which you failed to grasp or ignored, was that the country is so divided on this issue some form of civil war (very mild and pacific I hope) should not be discounted because a number of Remoaners on here feel their lives will be ruined because they might not inherit mommy and daddy's second home in Provence

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> If farmers need to rely on subsidies they're in

> the wrong business.

Do you have any understanding of the realities faced by farmers/food producers in this day and age? Any at all?

>

> If the reason farmers are struggling is because

> supermarkets are cartels then let's support them

No, they are struggling because the population of the UK (and pretty much everywhere else) doesn't want to pay what that pint of milk (and pork rib, and chicken, and sirloin steak etc) actually should cost. Supermarkets haven't helped, but generally the public has it's head happily in the sand over the actual cost of food production in the UK.

>

> Many of you will be too young to remember

> solidarnosk (solidarity, the Polish Trade Union).

> The Polish Government hiked up the price of bread

> and the poles refused to buy it. Three days later

> (I think) the Polish Government backed down.

>

> As consumers we are very powerful, if supermarkets

> pay milk suppliers, for example, pitiful prices

> don't buy milk until supermarkets pay more.

>

> Simples

The supermarkets will pass the cost straight onto you and me. While I accept the analogy, I think it's not an exact parallel. Prices aren't set by the government ,they're set by for-profit organisations who will maintain that profit at all costs. How much would you be willing to pay for a pint of milk?

>

> (Edited to add: more reason to leave the EU)

Leaving the EU will do nothing to solve this problem, it is irrelevant. It is a cultural issue that we as a nation must face - how much are we willing to pay for food?

Unlike my normal self, I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, but I get very frustrated, shall we say, at the idea that we can solve this problem without a total national debate - an honest one - on what it costs to feed ourselves.

I'm practically a vegetarian these days, mainly because meat - decent meat, charged at a price which allows the farmer to make a reasonable living - is out of our price range as a family. I'm lucky enough to know people who raise and slaughter animals in humane and caring conditions (which I've been to visit) and can buy stuff at a fair rate which tends to live in the freezer waiting for a special occasion. But most people don't have that option, and aren't aware of how cheaply they get their meat, and I think would be shocked at what it should actually cost for the farmer not to need subsidies or benefits!

Food is really expensive. It's all got very little to do with Brexit.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> True Loz but you can do better than that.

>

> As you're not from these shores I think we can

> forgive you for trying to play down a Hunger March

> of worldwide historic significance in such crude

> numerical terms.

>

> My point, which you failed to grasp or ignored,

> was that the country is so divided on this issue

> some form of civil war (very mild and pacific I

> hope) should not be discounted because a number of

> Remoaners on here feel their lives will be ruined

> because they might not inherit mommy and daddy's

> second home in Provence

You won the referendum, don't go blaming other people if the outcome isn't what you want it to be.

Both major parties are in support, it's entirely in your hands now. Don't act like 'Remoaners' (classy way to move the debate on there, btw) actually have any chance of derailing the process. Brexit has been triggered and now it's in the hands on David Davis et al.

You got what you wanted, stop preemptively blaming those with no control over the process for the possibility that the EU might decide to play hardball. No one has any idea what's going on behind closed doors anyway, it's all spin and posturing and PR. Nothing of any substance will be known for months. So maybe sit back and wait rather than telling others it's already all their fault?

[Loz]

keano77 Wrote:

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> As you're not from these shores I think we can forgive you for trying to play down a Hunger March

> of worldwide historic significance in such crude numerical terms.

World-wide historic significance?? I think you are overplaying your hand there, keano. If it was that significant world-wide, I am from one of the countries that would be one of the most likely to be widely aware of it. And it's not.

[keano77]

I agree with most of what you said JoeLeg (except the EU bit)

Yes, we need to pay a true cost for food. I buy my milk from a milkman (glass bottle etc), 89p a pint if I remember but the supermarkets sell 4 pints for ?1. Am I a fool?

I'm going to watch the Panorama programme at 8.30pm on farmers and Brexit so will get back to you then.

I hope there's lots of footage of peasant French farmers wearing berets with yellow Gauloise fags in the corner of their mouth standing next to huge tractors more suitable for American prairies - claiming poverty and wondering how flash boy Macron with Louis XIV pretensions is going to subsidise their lifestyles now they're due to lose Britain's Billions

[keano77]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > As you're not from these shores I think we can

> forgive you for trying to play down a Hunger

> March

> > of worldwide historic significance in such crude

> numerical terms.

>

> World-wide historic significance?? I think you are

> overplaying your hand there, keano. If it was that

> significant world-wide, I am from one of the

> countries that would be one of the most likely to

> be widely aware of it. And it's not.

???. Amazing what they teach at skool these days

[keano77]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > True Loz but you can do better than that.

> >

> > As you're not from these shores I think we can

> > forgive you for trying to play down a Hunger

> March

> > of worldwide historic significance in such

> crude

> > numerical terms.

> >

> > My point, which you failed to grasp or ignored,

> > was that the country is so divided on this

> issue

> > some form of civil war (very mild and pacific I

> > hope) should not be discounted because a number

> of

> > Remoaners on here feel their lives will be

> ruined

> > because they might not inherit mommy and

> daddy's

> > second home in Provence

>

> You won the referendum, don't go blaming other

> people if the outcome isn't what you want it to

> be.

>

> Both major parties are in support, it's entirely

> in your hands now. Don't act like 'Remoaners'

> (classy way to move the debate on there, btw)

> actually have any chance of derailing the process.

> Brexit has been triggered and now it's in the

> hands on David Davis et al.

>

> You got what you wanted, stop preemptively blaming

> those with no control over the process for the

> possibility that the EU might decide to play

> hardball. No one has any idea what's going on

> behind closed doors anyway, it's all spin and

> posturing and PR. Nothing of any substance will be

> known for months. So maybe sit back and wait

> rather than telling others it's already all their

> fault?

Okay, fair point JoeLeg but I think you'll agree there are many people trying to undermine Brexit.

Now, the whole thing seems quite simple to me. Firstly, it's becoming clear Michel Barnier, the EU chief negotiator, is an irrelevant patsy. We should refuse to talk to him. In the last 48 hours Guy Verhofstadt and another member of the European Parliament you'll never have heard of have threatened to veto practically everything.

Solution? I do have an idea how we could wrap up all negotiations and trade deal well before Christmas but I suspect you wouldn't like it

[Loz]

keano77 Wrote:

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>

>

> ???. Amazing what they teach at skool these days

Quite. Insignificant events in foreign countries somehow get overlooked. Whodathunkit?

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> I agree with most of what you said JoeLeg (except

> the EU bit)

>

> Yes, we need to pay a true cost for food. I buy my

> milk from a milkman (glass bottle etc), 89p a pint

> if I remember but the supermarkets sell 4 pints

> for ?1. Am I a fool?

Well, I doubt it, but somehow I suspect eve that .89p is undervaluing milk. Still, nice to know there are still milkmen around.

>

> I'm going to watch the Panorama programme at

> 8.30pm on farmers and Brexit so will get back to

> you then.

Feel free, but I maintain the essential issue has very little to do with Brexit or anything other than the fact that people don't understand what farming actually is, or why their kebab is so cheap, and why it shouldn't be.

>

> I hope there's lots of footage of peasant French

> farmers wearing berets with yellow Gauloise fags

> in the corner of their mouth standing next to huge

> tractors more suitable for American prairies -

> claiming poverty and wondering how flash boy

> Macron with Louis XIV pretensions is going to

> subsidise their lifestyles now they're due to lose

> Britain's Billions

What happens on the continent is irrelevant to the problems we face here. This is about - IMO - the culture in this country that thinks food should be cheap. It shouldn't. It should affordable, but the idea that a chicken should cost ?5, for example, is retarded.

[Loz]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Okay, fair point JoeLeg but I think you'll agree

> there are many people trying to undermine Brexit.

It's a bloody stupid idea that has the country plummeting towards disaster. Trying to blame said disaster on people pointing this out is like blaming the sinking of the Titanic on the people who said "I'm not sure sailing the ship towards that ruddy great big iceberg is a good idea".

[keano77]

If I mention Dame Edna Everage have you heard of her/him, that character? 🙂

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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>

> Okay, fair point JoeLeg but I think you'll agree

> there are many people trying to undermine Brexit.

>

> Now, the whole thing seems quite simple to me.

> Firstly, it's becoming clear Michel Barnier, the

> EU chief negotiator, is an irrelevant patsy. We

> should refuse to talk to him. In the last 48 hours

> Guy Verhofstadt and another member of the European

> Parliament you'll never have heard of have

> threatened to veto practically everything.

>

> Solution? I do have an idea how we could wrap up

> all negotiations and trade deal well before

> Christmas but I suspect you wouldn't like it

They might be trying but they won't succeed, and I am firmly convinced that too many people are still fighting the referendum of a year ago and not focusing on moving forward; that goes for BOTH sides.

We live in a democracy, we had a vote, one side lost. The other side won and now the ball is in their court, but the losers still get to complain (now fairs fair, Farage et al have been complaining for nearly half a century, so you don't get to tell the other lot that they have to shut up and be quiet - democracy, remember?). That`t's not the same thing as derailing the whole process which any reasonable person will tell you is simply not going to happen.

We're all in it now, and anyone who voted Remain, lost, got annoyed for a while and then moved on (like me and frankly quite a lot of us) is now allowed to have an opinion. This is not the same as standing in the way of 'the will of the people' (of whom we are part, remember?). Just because we lost doesn't mean you can tell us to shut up. You call us Remoaners (which is as juvenile as all the other names used by both sides), but that inherently postulates the idea that because we disagreed with you last year all our thoughts and beliefs are wrong and should be discounted. But you can't tell 48% of the population that they have no say.

You have an idea, I'm sure. Feel free to share it, maybe I'll feel free to disagree with it (democracy, remember?), and in a couple of years time no matter what has happened there will be very little change to immigration, business will have dictated most of the terms of whatever deal we get, all sides will spin it as a victory, and frankly nothing will have changed for the ordinary person in the street. That's my prediction, but what do I know?

And farmers will still be on subsidies.

[keano77]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Okay, fair point JoeLeg but I think you'll

> agree

> > there are many people trying to undermine

> Brexit.

>

> It's a bloody stupid idea that has the country

> plummeting towards disaster. Trying to blame said

> disaster on people pointing this out is like

> blaming the sinking of the Titanic on the people

> who said "I'm not sure sailing the ship towards

> that ruddy great big iceberg is a good idea".

Years ago Loz, people feared sailing towards the horizon meant you'd fall off the earth. In fact, if it was wasnn't for fearless Brexit-like types prepared to take a risk the Antipodes would never have been discovered and they're be no Dame Edna.

Remainers are a bit like early cartographers - Here be Dragons

[JoeLeg]

>

> Years ago Loz, people feared sailing towards the

> horizon meant you'd fall off the earth. In fact,

> if it was wasnn't for fearless Brexit-like types

> prepared to take a risk the Antipodes would never

> have been discovered and they're be no Dame Edna.

>

> Remainers are a bit like early cartographers -

> Here be Dragons

You do use some odd analogies sometimes...

Those explorers risked only themselves, and there are as many (if not more) tales of disaster as success.

Brexit is taking an entire nation on an unprecedented journey. Stop telling those who disagree with you that they have to take you on blind faith. Accept that this entails elements of tremendous risk, and that others are free to voice their fears.

Honestly, I got so fed up a Leave voters basically telling me "it'll be alright, what's the worst that could happen?" What, like have a binary vote that then puts total power in the hands of a few people who have to negotiate everything in a very short space of time having nothing to base it on and hope for the best?

Yeah, can't imagine why I'm so nervous...You're taking EVERYONE with you, and promising it'll be ok. It'd better be, mate...

[keano77]

That's up to people like you and me JoeLeg. The world is changing fast. If you've given up already and are a nervous wreck it doesn't bode well for when your job is replaced by a robot.

[Loz]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Solution? I do have an idea how we could wrap up

> all negotiations and trade deal well before

> Christmas but I suspect you wouldn't like it

Oh, do tell us. Considering we're heading towards economic disaster we would do with a laugh.

Does it involve invading Poland?

[keano77]

No really Loz, I don't think Britain is ready for such an innovative solution.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> That's up to people like you and me JoeLeg. The

> world is changing fast. If you've given up already

> and are a nervous wreck it doesn't bode well for

> when your job is replaced by a robot.

Interesting way of putting it. I don't think being nervous about future events is the same as being a nervous wreck, but your definition may be different to mine.

I'm a chef, so I don't imagine my job will be replaced by robot any time soon. I do wish I could get a few working for me though, because recruitment since the referendum has become disastrous (and I don't use that word lightly) throughout the whole hospitality industry. I know people in major hotel chains, people in Michelin-starred kitchens, people in pub companies, as well as contacts in the agencies. They al say the same thing - the quantity of EU applicants has dropped noticeably, which is a problem in an industry where 80% of staff (yes, 80%) are non-UK. Interestingly, according to a regular customer of ours who runs a major London hospital, that figure is similar in the NHS.

I would happily employ an entirely UK-born kitchen team, but they just don't seem to want to enter the industry.

I like a fast-changing world, and I'm not so filled with hubris as to believe we are on an inevitable course to disaster. I'm always open to debate and being persuaded; however, I do not buy the idea that things will automatically be ok when we leave. Politicians have a long history of screwing things up, and given how big an issue, for example, immigration was in many voters minds, I'm astonished by how many people seem to think it will simply be ok. Christ, even David Davis is playing it down. But I've posted ad nauseam my opinion on this so won't bore you with it again.

Just spare us the 'don't worry, it'll be fine' rubbish. It smacks of condescension and ridicule.

[keano77]

I don't see the problem JoeLeg. I'm not anti-immigration but would prefer controlled/selective immigration which we can't have while full members of the EU.

You're rightly concerned about shortages in your area. No problem, under selective immigration let more people you need in but say no to hundreds of thousands of others with no beneficial skills that the EU insists we must let in.

Some of the scum of Europe has been allowed onto to our shores, gangsters, drug dealers, people traffickers and so on. We don't need people like that.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> I don't see the problem JoeLeg. I'm not

> anti-immigration but would prefer

> controlled/selective immigration which we can't

> have while full members of the EU.

I have never argued with the idea that uncontrolled immigration has some serious flaws and am not about to start now. I do however have a firmly-held belief that there are many jobs which are menial, low-paid and generally undesirable and which are not, on the whole, currently staffed by UK-born individuals. I have heard no coherent argument for changing that, and yet such people are commonly seen as the main culprits of taking jobs away from British people.

>

> You're rightly concerned about shortages in your

> area. No problem, under selective immigration let

> more people you need in but say no to hundreds of

> thousands of others with no beneficial skills that

> the EU insists we must let in.

That's fine. Would you please conduct a UK-wide campaign to explain that to a lot of other people as well? I have no problem, and never have done, with the idea that a person must get a job within, say, three months of arriving here, but economic migrants go where they can get jobs. Why are those jobs not already being done by British people? Please don't give me the line that foreigners will work for less pay - minimum wage is the same for everyone, and companies will pay what they can get away with.

>

> Some of the scum of Europe has been allowed onto

> to our shores, gangsters, drug dealers, people

> traffickers and so on. We don't need people like

> that.

Well, it's hard to argue with such a straw man argument, so of course I won't bother, but I don't think they've been the main problem (and of course we're very good at growing our own scum). It's about jobs, and financial security, and always has been. People want to earn money and provide for their family and be successful. As humans we're very good at looking around for people to blame for problems of our own making. Immigration need to be handy deftly and with care - there's too much 'blunt talking', a lack of nuance and compromise; I hear the voice of the braying mob demanding a closure of the borders and a rejection of immigrants, and yet they seem unable to understand quite why those immigrants are here in the first place!

If the jobs weren't here, neither would they be. People need to be more open-minded about this issue.

[red devil]

keano77 Wrote:

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> No really Loz, I don't think Britain is ready for

> such an innovative solution.

Does it involve Elves?...

[keano77]

On the whole JoeLeg I agree with most of that.

1. Yes many menial low paid jobs are done by non-British people. There should be an open debate on this, people and politicians are too frightened to address it. Dole and housing benefit play a big part for Brits. I'm unemployed with rent paid etc. If I work in an old people's home, pick peas in Lincolnshire, fruit in Kent I lose some benefits, not worth my time. You don't hear the tories, Labour or other parties talking about this, too scared, no votes in it. It's not the EU's fault we have this situation and that many EU migrants fill these positions.

2. Your second point. Similar to above. However, foreigners will work for less pay and employers certainly will pay the minimum they can get away with and to hell with tax payers who pay for tax credits. Tax payers should not be required to subsidise companies paying low pay (see scandalous gig economy scams here). None of this is he EU's fault with the exception that the southern countries of the EU cannot provide jobs for their own people because Germany has them over a barrel repaying debts to German banks. People from poorer EU countries will migrate here for low wages which are actually higher than they can earn in their own countries.

3. Your third point wanders about a bit. However, I agree that a good number of Brexiteers see immigration as a very serious problem which I think is unfair. What must not be forgotten though is many parts of Britain are suffering. No jobs. High streets with shops closing being filled with charity shops. Libraries closing and so on. The EU got the blame for much of this in the Referendum quite unfairly.

The point was people voted for change. The roots of this may go back before the Thatcher years but in areas where the coal pits and factories closed, for example, nothing replaced them. The Blair/Brown years and Cameron/Osborne regime changed nothing.

Remaining in the EU, as it is currently configured will change nothing. Germany is booming but nearly everyone else is chugging along. Spain, Italy, Portugal Greece and Cyprus are in intensive care. Migration from Africa will get worse. The EU needs to integrate more to survive, co-ordinate taxes, create an army.

Brexit is the only rational course

[keano77]

red devil Wrote:

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> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > No really Loz, I don't think Britain is ready

> for

> > such an innovative solution.

>

> Does it involve Elves?...

No, but I'm tempted to incorporate that idea Red Devil, thanks

[JohnL]

4th Viscount St Davids no longer if he's not careful and that's a hereditary peerage he's playing fast and loose with (assuming the Queen can remove it ) She wore an EU hat remember - Viscount St Davids could end up in the Tower :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/crime/gina-miller-viscount-rhodri-colwyn-philipps-st-davids-westminster-magistrates-court-brexit-a7834636.html

[cella]

All these vile people being exposed - let's see what happens to him. Good on her.