Public executions on Peckham Rye Common (Query)

[edhistory]

Martin Baggoley in his book "Surrey Executions" asserts, without supporting evidence, that "In eighteenth-century Surrey [...] condemmed criminals were [...] hanged [...] on Peckham Common [...]".

I have never seen any evidence to support this statement.

Can someone provide an authentic reference?

Thank you.

John K

[Huggers]

God that thread title gave me a fright!

[hislordship]

What a great idea - let's do it.

[PeckhamRose]

Well I'd have thought Mr Beesley would be your first port of call, but remember that what we now call Peckham Rye Common may have covered a much larger area at the time, if I remember correctly.

Interesting question! Perhaps you could also write to The Peckham Society and have them publish the letter so someone might come back to you.

Let us all know what info you get!

[Penguin68]

From a web site ( http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/horsemon.html ) on the Horsemonger Lane Gaol it appears that Up to 1800, Surrey executions had been carried out at Guildford, Kingston and on Kennington Common using a cart to turn the condemned off from, prior to the opening of Horsemonger Lane. If the Rye was used for executions at all, this appears to have been unusual. Normally public executions would take place where there was a significant local population to ensure a good (and commercially lucrative) crowd. (Justice done, seen to be done, and a good profit for someone).

[Ridgley]

I wonder if it will be a good deterrent now that we have DNA?

[Loz]

We've had DNA for hundreds of thousands of years.

[Ridgley]

Loz wrote

------------------------

We've had DNA for hundreds of thousands of years.

Only recently introduce as a way of solving crime

[StraferJack]

The accuracy and reliability of DNA testing is far from clear-cut Ridgely

But let's assume it was 100% - it doesn't mean I (for one) would want public executions brought back

[Ridgley]

I would have agreed with you a few years, ago now there are mixed views about this topic.

[StraferJack]

you agreed with me about DNA or about public execution

Assuming DNA, I'd want more than "mixed views" for a conviction

[Loz]

DNA profiling not 100%.

It's not 100% in identifying a person - a DNA crime scene sample is usually contaminated. Also, even if it correctly identifies a person, who is to same they committed the crime? I could commit a crime and leave a single hair that I have stolen from you... and you would be identified, even though you had not been anywhere near (and sadly for you, you were home alone that night and unable to get anyone to vouch for your whereabouts).

And besides, even if it was 100%, what right do we have to to execute anyone - especially publicly? Justice should be about punishment and rehabilitation - not vengeance. Besides, as America shows, it doesn't act as a deterrent and only poor people are ever executed anyway.

[Ridgley]

That fact it punishments and rehabilitation does not work either, it very easy to say this until a member of your family has been brutally murdered and life does not mean life so what is the solution?

[StraferJack]

if there is a solution it won't be found on this thread - which I suggest we vacate and leave to it's original purpose

[showboat]

"That fact it punishments and rehabilitation does not work either, it very easy to say this until a member of your family has been brutally murdered and life does not mean life so what is the solution?"

Just a couple of points...

1. The DNA tests used in Britain are considered to be unreliable by the FBI - and the Americans have their own problems with unsafe convictions, so why anyone thinks the use of DNA would prevent innocent people being executed is beyond me.

2. Albert Pierrepoint himself famously said "I have come to the conclusion that executions solve nothing, and are only an antiquated relic of a primitive desire for revenge which takes the easy way and hands over the responsibility for revenge to other people...The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off."

He also said "All the men and woman whom I have faced at that final moment, convince me that in what I have done, I have not prevented a single murder."

Although he indeed seemed to flip flop on his opinions about capital punishment throughout the last years of his life, it seems that he felt it was not an effective deterrent. The continuing murder rate in places with the death penalty seems to support this view.

3. If a member of your family has been brutally murdered and you think that execution of the offender is the answer (assuming you have the right one - Birmingham Six/Guildford Four anyone?), then it sounds to me like what you want is actually revenge, not fair justice. This is why families of victims don't have sentencing rights.

4. If you truly support the death penalty, then answer me this - do you have total, 100% faith in our legal system? Do you believe it is watertight and infallible? If not, then do you accept that an innocent person might be executed for a crime they did not commit (which is murder) while the real criminal walked free? You say that it's easy to talk until someone you know is murdered. Well, what if someone you knew and believed to be innocent was condemned? Where would your support for capital punishment be then?

[Amelie]

I don't think criticism by the FBI is anything to worry about but rather a badge of honour. I attended a talk given by Alec Jefferies, who carried out the work that led to DNA profiling, and I'll take his word for it over the FBI any day.

[PeckhamRose]

Getting back to the opening post (for a laugh), Peckham Common as I said might have covered a much wider area and may not be in the area we refer to as Peckham Rye Park. I think I am right in saying that Peckham High Street is part of the original Watling Street leading from london to Dover, so there would possibly have been more inhabitants along that stretch to watch the hanging, and maybe Peckham Common was the area around the canal? I am sort of thinking in type ('aloud') but if all this were true then maybe such hangings occurred at that junction/area. But do see my previous post for ideas of how to find out for sure.

[lilolil]

There is this.... Look for 10th August 1786 LADD hanged Peckham Common.

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/surrey.html

[Penguin68]

A single sodomist hanged on 'Peckam Common' (however wide a net that casts) does not suggest any regularity of that area being used for executions - the original quote would appear to be more accurate if it had said that "In eighteenth-century Surrey [...] a condemmed criminal was [...] hanged [...] on Peckham Common [...]".

[PeckhamRose]

Well it's a start! Well done lilolil!

[Louisa]

Peckham common was not the area surrounding the then Homestall Farm (Peckham Rye Park), it was the common land to the north of Peckham Village (running parallel with Hill Stree).

Louisa.

[lilolil]

On the Booth poverty map a hundred years later it is shown as being Peckham Rye Common.

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/cgi-bin/do.pl?sub=view_booth_and_barth&m.l=0&m.d.l=0&m.p.x=11278&m.p.y=11018&m.p.w=500&m.p.h=309&m.p.l=0&m.t.w=128&m.t.h=80&b.p.x=19704&b.p.y=16760&b.p.w=500&b.p.h=309&b.p.l=1&b.v.x=80&b.v.y=123

I will try and find an earlier map later when I have a bit more time!

[edhistory]

Thank you for the lead, lilolil, there's a good chance it can be authenticated.

It raises some interesting questions:

[A] Do the court records survive?

Can a narrative be recovered?

[C] Can anything more be found out about Mr Ladd?

[D] Is this one of the sheep-shagging convictions under the Buggery Act of 1533 (25 Hen. VIII c. 6)?

[E] Why, in this case, was an exception made to the traditional place of execution at Kennington Common?

[F] Was a law and order deterrent being addressed to the people of Camberwell Parish?

[G] Was 10th August 1786 the date of a Peckham Common fair where Mr Ladd was the main entertainment?

Louisa raises the continuing confusion about the three distinct and geographically separate open spaces:

Peckham Rye

Peckham Rye Common

Peckham Rye Park

For 1786 there is hard evidence that the Common was in Friern (East Dulwich).

There's an amusing story that around 1950 London Council Council lost Peckham Rye Common and only found it again by swearing an affidavit.

John K

[ianr]

1786 Surrey Assize papers are at ASSI 31/14 in the National Archives. There are also some Southwark Quarter Sessions papers at the London Metropolitan Archives within CLA/046, eg: http://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+%22CLA~2F046~2F01~2F016%22?SESSIONSEARCH&URLMARKER=STARTREQUEST, and at the Surrey History Centre in Woking. No trace of Ladd found in oldbaileyonline.org, The Times digital archive, or the online catalogue of Surrey HC contents..

[Bluerevolution]

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