Denmark Hill station entrance shambles

[edcam]

Thanks folks. How disappointing. They almost certainly won't do anything until something awful happens.

[James Barber]

GLA Assembly Member and myself met with Thameslink people on Friday to witness and discuss the overcrowding and proposed solutions.

Network Rail are proposing in the next Control Period (5 year plan) starting April 2019 see p.85 of this -https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/South-East-Kent-route-study-interactive-version.pdf

1. Additional gates on current gate line.

2. Additional station entrance on Windsor Walk linked to newer Access for All (AfA) footbridge that has lifts.

3. Relocating existing entrance ot align with AfA footbridge.

4. Lengthen platforms to stop trains more centred on AfA footbridge.

5. Add cover to AfAA footbridge.

Worryingly this was news to thE thameslink people. They have been discussing plans with Network Rail about post 3 only which would cost circa ?1.5m.

Clearly moving the overcrowding from the older staircase to the newer staircase will be money wasted. The height difference between the AfA footbridge will require some substantial ramping - but hopefully some direct stairs as well.

Lengthening the platforms form current 8 cars to 12 could lead to a dramatic increase in capacity which would be excellent news.

The bad news the government has not agreed the proposed 5 year Control Period 6 plans. The good news is this leaves an opportunity to prepare Denmark Hill plans, align with stakeholders such as Camberwell Society, get planning permission and be 'shovel ready'.

[BEJun]

Could the Original station booking hall (Where the Phoenix pub is currently situated) be looked into bringing back into railway use? As this would have plenty of space to have additional gates and would ease overcrowding during the Peak (AM / PM) hours. Doesn't Network Rail own the space to the original booking hall currently?

We drastically need GTR to put live departure boards along where the AfA footbridge stairs are, as at the London-end of the platforms where the current boards are - it can be extremely overcrowded by the original (old) staircase during the morning rush hour. This would encourage more people to use the AfA footbridge I reckon with boards towards the Kent Direction?

[KidKruger]

That would make a huge difference, but they'd lose the rent on that property wouldn't they ?

At that would amount to putting customers above profit. So unlikely at best I'd expect !

[cella]

I have been using this station regularly for the last coupe of years and, considering major works took place there quite recently, it just isn't fit for purpose. The entrance is tiny for the amount of commuters using the station and simply can't cater at busy times to allow for people entering and leaving buying tickets and trying to view the train times (which are at an inconvenient angle). The passageways can be blocked for ages at times with people trying to get in and out at the same time which must be a safety hazard. The shop has two exits which is telling while the station only has one. Also quite often there are up to 3 members of staff loitering and chatting at the ticket office instead of getting involved with customers to assist and encouraging people to move on. The train announcements can be poor with unintelligible messages and frequent platform changes so it must be difficult for older people or those with buggies to move in time. Poor customer service and ultimately an accident waiting to happen.

[edcam]

Yep. Still a nightmare and not a single sign of them dealing with it.

[Elphinstone's Army]

This shambolic station, with platform changes as the train is approaching, officiousmember of staff, stuck lift, melee beneaththe destinationboards/ticketmachine/ barriers and seldom open ticket/information counters is the reason those of us able to board the 40 to LB/Guy's feel relieved when riding past.

There is however, a potential flaw in the exercising of this alternative transportation.

[James Barber]

I attended a meeting with lots of stakeholders venue provided by the Maudsley about Denmark Station Monday am. Huge thanks to Caroline Pidgeon GLA Assembly Member for making this meeting and the previous ones.

Their are plans to open a new permanent second entrance/exit to Denmark Hill station. The timescales for a new permanent entrance would be 3-4 years. Grim.

I suggested that the station is at crisis point and a temporary entrance should be installed urgently. Mood was this should happen. The quickest and cheapest temporary entrance would be to add it to Champion Park side with card readers, or Windsor Walk without, feeding with steps from the newer under used passenger bridge directly.

I've attached a photo of one proposed permanent entrance.

Some really strange thinking - seven options where some do not propose to make both footways equally attractive - shifting the blockages from the current older footway and staircase to the newer ones.

Proposal to have a one way passenger route in and out of the station put in place over Xmas - I was a lone voice suggesting this was the wrong priority.

[Applespider]

One way system in and out? Are they nuts? That will cause worse havoc!

[rendelharris]

Applespider Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> One way system in and out? Are they nuts? That

> will cause worse havoc!

Doesn't it make sense? If it means what I think it means it's what I wrote to them suggesting a while back - that people coming in are only allowed to use the new stairs and people coming out use the old ones, it would at least prevent the two streams colliding. Ideally it would be reversed so the new stairs were used for entrance in the morning and exit in the evening, but that might be rather complex and require more staff which the powers that be would doubtless be unwilling to fund.

Only a temporary alleviation before the much-need second entrance though. Three to four years? Will it be speeded up if/when multiple people are seriously injured or even killed in a crush incident?

[Cardelia]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Applespider Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > One way system in and out? Are they nuts? That

> > will cause worse havoc!

>

> Doesn't it make sense? If it means what I think it

> means it's what I wrote to them suggesting a while

> back - that people coming in are only allowed to

> use the new stairs and people coming out use the

> old ones, it would at least prevent the two

> streams colliding. Ideally it would be reversed so

> the new stairs were used for entrance in the

> morning and exit in the evening, but that might be

> rather complex and require more staff which the

> powers that be would doubtless be unwilling to

> fund.

I quite like the one-way system as an idea in principle, but the current station layout isn't conducive to one way operation and it can't easily be made compliant. They trialled the idea a few months ago during the morning rush and it didn't work for several reasons:

1) The lifts are only on the new footbridge. If this bridge is restricted to entering passengers only, what do passengers with mobility issues do when they want to exit the station?

2) FCB is popular. Very popular. If a one-way system is in operation and I want a coffee on my way to work, then I need to enter the station and go down to the platform via the new stairs, then go up the old stairs to FCB, then back round the one-way system to the new stairs once I have my coffee. Is that sensible?

3) What happens when Network Rail pull one of their last-second-platform-change tricks? Do we all have to go up the old stairs, round the one-way system and down the new stairs? That's guaranteed to make people miss their train. It's difficult enough as it is with no restrictions, adding a one-way system will only make it harder.

4) Related to the above, some people use Denmark Hill as an interchange station and don't enter/exit. Will they have to obey the one-way system too? Anyone with a tight connection, or on a delayed incoming service, isn't going to like it very much.

In my opinion the best interim solution is a temporary entrance on Champion Park with card readers. This could be entry only during the morning rush, switching to exit only in the evening rush. It would encourage more people to use the new bridge during the busiest hours of operation, hopefully taking enough pressure off the main entrance and old bridge to prevent the gross overcrowding and queues.

[rendelharris]

All fair points - except for the one about FCB, why can't that be made entrance and exit only from Windsor Walk, it's not much to ask for people to walk ten yards round the corner to get their coffee before entering the station, is it?

Perhaps several of the difficulties could be ameliorated if it wasn't compulsory (so people could go against the flow if necessary, e.g. if needing the lifts) but suggested, either by staff or signage? At Twickenham station last Saturday with the rugby crowds there were two members of staff monitoring the traffic flow and shouting, "More space if you go down to the left" or "Get through quicker on the right" - it helped a lot.

Temporary (second) entrance on Champion Park fair idea though very expensive I would imagine as it might require reinforcing the embankment etc. I haven't seen any explanation of why the boarded-up building just down from the corner of Windsor Walk (old ticket office or exit?) couldn't be knocked into a temporary entrance/exit with card readers, that would appear to be a low-cost measure.

[Applespider]

When I suggested havoc, it wasn?t because I don?t think the theory is sound. But that in practice, it will be painful particularly as it?s only really needed for an hour at either end of the working day.

You?ll need signage and barriers on each platform to stop people going the wrong way, or getting het up and just barfmging past everyone. That doesn?t cover those legit accessibility reasons to go the ?wrong? way. People getting on/off buses and in a hurry to catch them will end up careering across the road more than they do now. It may seem easy and logical but people are broadly in the camp of doing what is perceived to be least effort - hence worn grass paths instead of using s right angled pavement.

It would be interesting to know the directions most passengers come from - and build temporary routes based on those. If the bridge had exits at both ends (to the bus stop rather than the walk back up the ramp) I guarantee the new bridge would be used more. It?s great to think we can design for the ideal world but sadly we don?t live in one.

[James Barber]

The operator has employed extra people who were originally going to enforce one-way operation. It lasted 30 minutes before they gave up.

The answer is a temporary emergency entrance exit of off the new walkway/bridge so both are equally attractive. Emoloying a number of people to try enforcing a one-way system will distract the operator from a proper extra capacity solution.