Denmark Hill station entrance shambles

[James Barber]

GLA Assembly Member has just shared this statement with me received by her from GTR:

"

GTR and Network Rail have noted the significant increase in passenger footfall at Denmark Hill and the pressures that this then causes on the station infrastructure particularly around peak travelling times.

Network Rail have conducted an assessment on the station capacity including detailed pedestrian modelling with a number of interventions both physical and operational. A possible second entrance was considered as part of the assessment, however it is noted that this solution requires significant capital investment in order to deliver.

The station is considered a priority for investment to improve station capacity as and when funds become available to achieve this (typically this is governed through the 5 yearly railway funding periods). The next railway period (CP6) will commence from April 2019.

In order to support this intervention GTR has sought funding through the National Stations Improvement Programme to assess the feasibility of a second entrance with the support of Network Rails' specialist engineers. A concept proposal has been prepared which considers a second entrance onto Windsor Walk connected via the recently installed footbridge with lifts. This has allowed the industry to understand the magnitude of costs, risks and constructability to inform a future bid for capital investment.

We note that the station building is listed and that a capacity intervention of this nature will require local stakeholder support. GTR will shortly be meeting a mix of the Borough of Southwark's planning officers / team members and local elected members. The purpose will be to review the concept design so that representations on the solution and design can be understood and endorsed. This will allow an intervention to proceed into delivery stage as soon as reasonably practicable once the necessary significant funding is made available."

What I fear is another planning disaster caused by Southwark Council. The station remodelling was after Southwark refused to allow the original pedestrian access between platforms to be widened and one of the original ticket office windows to be turned into a new doorway into the ticket office and onto the walkway. This added several million to the Access for All project costs as well as a huge delay from all the extra works.

I will try and get invited to this critical meeting.

[KidKruger]

I just get off at Peckham - far less hassle than DH.

[Zaardvark]

Isn't the best solution to this, for now, to turn the coffee shop back into an entrance? I know it is close to the main ticket office but I am guessing the passage from the coffee shop entrance to the ticket office could be blocked so as to force foot traffic to go in both directions?

Z

[jimlad48]

This morning at 0850 the queue to get out stretched from platform 3/4 to the exit and it was static. Utter madness.

[Nigello]

I agree that the coffee bar is way too big. Safety is more important than getting a coffee of a morning. The two can go hand in hand, if the shop were made smaller.

[85volga]

Coffee shop to go ..... band aid approach

Best the pub gets closed and the space turned back into the function it was designed.... a entrance hall for the train station .... Fargon madness

[cornelia]

One way system in peak times would also be helpful - I think this was proposed once before but not sure what the objections were.

[jimlad48]

Scarily, the coffee bar entrance door used to be the sole door into the station - can you imagine that now?

[rendelharris]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Scarily, the coffee bar entrance door used to be

> the sole door into the station - can you imagine

> that now?

Yet in the time I lived up (and commuted from) there I never recall any real crush! It's the funnelling everyone through a couple of automatic gates that really causes the problems as much as anything. Don't know what the solution is to that in terms of managing fare evasion but it beggars belief that the great brains behind the redesign couldn't figure out that forcing several hundred/thousand people through three two foot wide slots might cause problems...

[James Barber]

Hi rendelharris,

I think forcing people who use the most popular walkway to have to do a 90 degree turn and use a few steps causes a problem on that bridge. Previous people joined and a good proportion went both way from the old entrance/exit.

Southwark Planning blocking widening of that bridge and keeping the original entrance but more doorways has costs the tax payer millions and created this terrible dogs dinner situation.

If a gate is opened on Windsor Walk that would be the cheapest build cost. But to operate it will need more staff - gates are only allowed to operate when staff present. Which means more costs for passengers get put onto their fares.

With the ticket office permanently closed their would be sufficient space to at least double the gates on the current gate line - and this would be probably the cheapest and quickest option to implement.

[rendelharris]

That would make perfect sense James...so not holding my breath...

Given the current chaos perhaps an interim measure would be to leave the exit barriers open at peak times so people could simply tap in/out rather than wait for the barriers to let them through one by one. This was done quite a lot when the new exit first opened, I don't know why. Yes it would doubtless facilitate a certain amount of fare dodging (though most people at rush hour are coming from places where they need to get through a barrier to get in anyway) but rather that than the crush disaster which is plainly waiting to happen.

One small but significant bugbear is the number of people who get to the barrier then start looking for their Oyster in jackets, bags etc! Is it a shock that you're going to have to use it? Perhaps signage or tannoys reminding people to have their tickets ready might help - shouldn't be necessary but it's amazing how often the queue's held up by the unprepared - and they always stand right in front of the gate whilst searching rather than step aside and let others through! (See also people in the supermarket who wait until they've bagged all their shopping then start looking for their cards!)

[dc]

The ?problem? - if that is the right word - is that passenger access at DH has doubled in just a few years. That would be fine in many circumstances but going from 3 million+ to 7 million+ is a scale of things that even the most optimistic supporter of the ELLX (a major driver of the increase I am sure) would never even have tried to pretend was realistic.

The original campaign that resulted in works at the station was in relation to accessibility per se - particularly given the fact that so many people with physical impairments (permanent or temporary) use the station to access KCH. The newer problem - at key peak periods at least - is about passenger safety. The physical safety of passengers is an oft stated absolute priority, so I?m surprised that the responsible authorities - both TOCs and DfT - are (reportedly) not being more responsive.

[Earl Aelfheah]

dc Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The ?problem? - if that is the right word - is

> that passenger access at DH has doubled in just a

> few years. That would be fine in many

> circumstances but going from 3 million+ to 7

> million+ is a scale of things that even the most

> optimistic supporter of the ELLX (a major driver

> of the increase I am sure) would never even have

> tried to pretend was realistic.

>

> The original campaign that resulted in works at

> the station was in relation to accessibility per

> se - particularly given the fact that so many

> people with physical impairments (permanent or

> temporary) use the station to access KCH. The

> newer problem - at key peak periods at least - is

> about passenger safety. The physical safety of

> passengers is an oft stated absolute priority, so

> I?m surprised that the responsible authorities -

> both TOCs and DfT - are (reportedly) not being

> more responsive.

The problem was a flawed design and bad management. It would have been incredibly easy to have built a bigger exit / entrance and to have had an additional exit / entrance point on Windsor Walk. Both these things were called for at the time. The project saw major over runs and a 2m + overspend. Now we're told there's no more money to fix it. With proper management, and thoughtful design, we wouldn't be seeing these issues.

[jimlad48]

I am mildly astounded at how difficult it is to build a short flight of steps and a gate.

Surely we could do what other stations have and have a gate open on windsor walk, but just have a oyster touch pad there, and accept the risk a tiny number of people may not pay? This would make an immediate difference.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Given that the number of people using Denmark Hill station has doubled in a few years, the income attributable to Denmark Hill station has also doubled. So, no need to put up prices to pay for an additional entrance/ exit to cope with a steep increase in travellers. That anybody is questioning the need for more access points in these circumstances is simply bizarre.

ED station doesn't have barriers, just Oyster touchpads, no obvious signs of staff monitoring the entrance/ exit to the right of the bridge and away from the station office.

Just get on with it.

[James Barber]

Hi dc,

Denmark Hill station use has seen a much more dramatic increase over the last 20 years. At lunch time I took a look at the stats -http://orr.gov.uk/statistics/published-stats/station-usage-estimates and total passengers coming and going has risen since 1997/98 from 956.023 to 2016/17 7.187,152 or a 752% increase in 20 years. Please see attached.

[mikeb]

Janes - is any of this increase attributable to better counting of passengers following the introduction of barriers?

[James Barber]

Hi mikeb,

The same estimation methodology is used.

If anything it is likely and under recording. Local community groups across the country where they've undertaken counts of people coming and going they've recorded far higher numbers.

Denmark Hill barriers are not operated all the time.

[dc]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Surely we could do what other stations have and

> have a gate open on windsor walk, but just have a

> oyster touch pad there, and accept the risk a tiny

> number of people may not pay? This would make an

> immediate difference.

My understanding is that TfL require ?proper? ticket barriers at any stations where their services operate - even if they do not manage the station itself. So I don?t think an ?open? station entrance, as at East Dulwich, is a realistic option.

The obvious comparison with Denmark Hill is Forest Hill where there is a smaller entrance/exit with ticket barriers onto Perry Vale on the east side. It would be much more congested at times there if everyone had to access or exit the down platform via the footbridge. Forest Hill is managed by TfL and I?m sure things would improve Denmark Hill if it was managed by TfL too. At the moment however, TfL are both part of the problem and a potential source for a solution.

[Applespider]

I don?t think Forest Hill is that comparable as they (along with most other stations) have peak outbound in the morning and peak inbound in the afternoon. Denmark Hill?s morning peak mixes both in and outbound passengers. So unlike other stations where they can switch the gates to help the flow, it just ends up as a melee.

The crazy thing is that it?s really only for an hour or so a day and the rest of the time, it?s fine. If you could rely on trains being on time, you could try a better staggering of trains so you don?t have five arriving within minutes of each other in that peak hour?

[dc]

Fair enough but I was thinking primarily in terms of the construction of the station which, theoretically at least, would allow access from both the north and south sides - as is the case at Forest Hill (albeit more east and west there). Of course there are many other differences - Forest Hill has two million fewer passengers and only two platforms for a start.

[alex_b]

dc Wrote:

>

> My understanding is that TfL require ?proper?

> ticket barriers at any stations where their

> services operate - even if they do not manage the

> station itself. So I don?t think an ?open? station

> entrance, as at East Dulwich, is a realistic

> option.

>

Clapham High Street (Overground) doesn't have barriers nor does the rail part of Elephant and Castle (Thameslink)or East Dulwich (Southern) so I don't think it can be a requirement from anyone who operates at Denmark Hill.

[dc]

alex_b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Clapham High Street (Overground) doesn't have

> barriers nor does the rail part of Elephant and

> Castle (Thameslink)or East Dulwich (Southern) so I

> don't think it can be a requirement from anyone

> who operates at Denmark Hill.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant any station at which TfL services stop - which doesn?t apply to ED or E&C. I wasn?t aware/didn?t remember that there are no gates at Clapham High Street. That?s obviously the exception that proves my rule!

[James Barber]

Going through some folders I came across this information - more to following over the weekend:

"

It was good to see you last Friday. As promised, here is some further information regarding Denmark Hill station:

Network Rail Route Study Station Capacity Assessment

The study was undertaken over two days in July 2015, approximately two weeks before the start of school holidays. Video cameras captured the tops of all stairs to the platforms and also the gateline. Counts were completed for the AM (07:00 - 10:00) and PM (16:00 - 19:00) peaks and were classified by person type (i.e. person with large luggage, bicycle etc).

Counts were provided in 5 minute intervals and showed that flows were slightly higher in the AM on Wednesday at 10,700 (10,400 on Tuesday) and in the PM on Tuesday at 9,200 (8,800 on Wednesday). On both days the AM peak was considerably busier than the PM peak.

The AM flows were very balanced with similar numbers of passengers entering and exiting the station (52/48 in favour of exits).

The Access for All footbridge is used by approximately 30% of passengers in the AM peak, the remaining 70% using the original overbridge.

Platform 4 (towards Bromley) only accounts for 7% of flows in the AM peak but 26% of flows in the PM peak.

The PM peak has a more tidal flow with station entries making up 60% of gateline movements.

The Access for All overbridge is used by 32% of passengers in the PM peak, slightly more (2%) than in the AM peak.

Annual footfall at Denmark Hill station

The latest ORR footfall figure for Denmark Hill station is shown below. As mentioned on Friday, some of the difference between the 2015-16 and 2014-15 figure "is due to changes to the methodology" associated with the London Travelcard. The leap in passenger numbers in 2013-14 reflected the first full year of operation of the south-western branch of the London Overground network.

pastedImage.png [attached to this post]

With best wishes,

"

[EDPineapple]

Whilst the station certainly needs a new entrance, the time and cost of constructing one means that a short/medium term solution must be sought.

I think that this thread has brought up a great suggestion which could be implemented very quickly. Remove the barriers and replace them with pay tap-pads.

To add to the posts above regarding Clapham High Street, Elephant & Castle and East Dulwich not having barriers, Herne Hill is another station not to have barriers. Its entrance is approximately the same width as Denmark Hill and also has 4 platforms. But I've never experienced the problems getting in or out that regularly happen at DH.

Given the single (often blocked) entrance/exit to Denmark Hill also serves as its only fire exit I would hope that on those grounds alone something is done sooner rather than later to avoid the problem continuing.