New Southwark Form to request a CPZ now online

[jimlad48]

Bobby P Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> jimlad48 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > East Dulwich residents want a CPZ - I know as I

> > have met them.

>

> Don't know who you have met, but that is a very

> broad generalisation at best and empirically not

> true, since every time this has come up as a

> vote/consultation, ED residents have voted

> against.

>

> There naturally are always some who do want

> parking restrictions, but I don't think an

> agitating minority should be able to inflict extra

> taxes on a larger number who are perfectly happy

> with the status quo.

If thats the democratic vote, then thats awesome - the people have spoken. BUT, mindful that parking is about to get a lot worse due to new CPZ elsewhere, I have met with Residents who are keen to see change. I think you'll see a major shift in attitude, particularly from areas near the Dog Kennel Hill zone in the next few months, and it will be interesting to see how the council respond.

[Bobby P]

> If thats the democratic vote, then thats awesome -

> the people have spoken. BUT, mindful that parking

> is about to get a lot worse due to new CPZ

> elsewhere, I have met with Residents who are keen

> to see change.

It seems you are some kind of campaigner for CPZs, since what happens in ED clearly has nothing to do with your own area, where you already have one.

Unless you are a Southwark employee or represent some anti-car campaign (for instance), I can't imagine why you are meeting with CPZ-enthusiast residents in this area, or agitating for this to happen here, as I really can't see how it benefits or concerns you.

Nothing against anyone being a campaigner for CPZs if that is what they believe in, but let's face it, it's not just neighbourly concern that motivates this, so it would be interesting to know who you represent.

[jimlad48]

Bobby P Wrote:

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> > If thats the democratic vote, then thats awesome

> -

> > the people have spoken. BUT, mindful that

> parking

> > is about to get a lot worse due to new CPZ

> > elsewhere, I have met with Residents who are

> keen

> > to see change.

>

> It seems you are some kind of campaigner for CPZs,

> since what happens in ED clearly has nothing to do

> with your own area, where you already have one.

>

> Unless you are a Southwark employee or represent

> some anti-car campaign (for instance), I can't

> imagine why you are meeting with CPZ-enthusiast

> residents in this area, or agitating for this to

> happen here, as I really can't see how it benefits

> or concerns you.

>

> Nothing against anyone being a campaigner for CPZs

> if that is what they believe in, but let's face

> it, it's not just neighbourly concern that

> motivates this, so it would be interesting to know

> who you represent.

I don't represent anyone actually. I'm a local resident, keen participant in local democracy and keen to support fellow local residents. I was approached to offer advice, which I've happily offered and am now happy to offer the same advice to others too.

I wasn't aware that offering help and support to people who ask for it, and extending the offer is a crime. If you don't like the fact that freedom of speech means listening to people offer support for others, and instead prefer to cast aspersions, then thats a great shame, but thats the country we live in.

I'm not going to go away, and I'm happy to keep offering advice to people in ED who want it - I've already have several approaches, so clearly opinions differ. If though you can point to the specific byelaw or regulation that prevents local people living outside your illustrious postcode offering online assistance to local residents then by all means point me to it, and I'll come quietly to the cop shop...

[Bobby P]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bobby P Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > > If thats the democratic vote, then thats

> awesome

> > -

> > > the people have spoken. BUT, mindful that

> > parking

> > > is about to get a lot worse due to new CPZ

> > > elsewhere, I have met with Residents who are

> > keen

> > > to see change.

> >

> > It seems you are some kind of campaigner for

> CPZs,

> > since what happens in ED clearly has nothing to

> do

> > with your own area, where you already have one.

>

> >

> > Unless you are a Southwark employee or

> represent

> > some anti-car campaign (for instance), I can't

> > imagine why you are meeting with CPZ-enthusiast

> > residents in this area, or agitating for this

> to

> > happen here, as I really can't see how it

> benefits

> > or concerns you.

> >

> > Nothing against anyone being a campaigner for

> CPZs

> > if that is what they believe in, but let's face

> > it, it's not just neighbourly concern that

> > motivates this, so it would be interesting to

> know

> > who you represent.

>

>

> I don't represent anyone actually. I'm a local

> resident, keen participant in local democracy and

> keen to support fellow local residents. I was

> approached to offer advice, which I've happily

> offered and am now happy to offer the same advice

> to others too.

>

> I wasn't aware that offering help and support to

> people who ask for it, and extending the offer is

> a crime. If you don't like the fact that freedom

> of speech means listening to people offer support

> for others, and instead prefer to cast aspersions,

> then thats a great shame, but thats the country we

> live in.

>

> I'm not going to go away, and I'm happy to keep

> offering advice to people in ED who want it - I've

> already have several approaches, so clearly

> opinions differ. If though you can point to the

> specific byelaw or regulation that prevents local

> people living outside your illustrious postcode

> offering online assistance to local residents then

> by all means point me to it, and I'll come quietly

> to the cop shop...

Hmmm. As I do believe I stated in my post, nothing against people campaigning for CPZs if that is their wont. And indeed grass-root campaigns have every right to flourish and prevail - or to flounder and be defeated if found wanting.

As for affiliation, thank you for clarifying how you come to be advocating for this: I understand that pretty clearly now.

Finally, one would have to say we clearly do respect 'free speech' on this very forum - where people have different opinions and robust debate often occurs. Funnily enough, though you have no way of knowing this, I am a true absolutist for unfettered free speech - the value of raising and debating even the most controversial issues, especially ones far more controversial than CPZs - so found it very funny to be accused of the opposite! :)

[TTW]

Jimlad ignore the haters. What?s sad is this is a perfect example of myopia/nimbyism that blights UK politics at every level- ?if it isn?t a problem for me then it shouldn?t be a problem for anyone else? (and vice versa).

On Chadwick Rd at the moment the parking situation is a nightmare- it regularly takes 30-45 mins to find a parking space within 1km of my house, almost entirely due to commuters. I?ve heard stories of disabled people soiling themselves because they can?t find a place to park near their home. For us, the CPZ can?t come soon enough.

I?m perfectly willing to accept that this may not be everyone?s experience in ED, and that some people vociferously oppose CPZs and don?t want/need them in their area. But to attack you for offering advice/support to those who are suffering with local parking chaos is absurd.

I don?t expect to be able to park directly outside my house - anywhere on my street would be fine. But at the moment this is impossible - Our street (and many nearby) are being used as a giant carpark for Peckham Rue station, which is unfair and unnecessary when there are many public transport options.

[BrandNewGuy]

Wait a minute, you're near Peckham Rye station? That's had parking pressure for years. Most of East Dulwich doesn't have 'parking chaos'.

And if I'm a 'hater' I think that gives me the right to call you a 'snowflake'.

[Willard]

Jimlad - so far we have established that you don't live in East Dulwich (but instead SE5), that you don't own a car, and that your road already has a CPZ. And yet you've spent the last few days lecturing everyone on this forum about how awesome they are and how we should all have them. Your obsession is borderline creepy, certainly a bit weird.

You accuse others of hyperbole - and yet churn out gems like "Its nothing to do with parking in front of your house. Its everything to do with parking within half a mile of your house." Ok - show of hands on here: who in East Dulwich has encountered parking issues so bad that they haven't been able to park within half a mile of their house? Answers on a postcard to SE5 please.

You claim to be an authority on what SE22 residents want because, anecdotally, you have spoken to some of us. Well you don't speak for me, and judging by the majority of responses on here you don't speak for the majority. Why don't you take your odd CPZ agenda and go and pester some other forums?

[flocker spotter]

Op has been banging this drum on here for 4 solid years now. have a day off

[tash b]

I live in east dulwich and have a lot of family and friends that live in roads near by me, they all have the same problem as me it?s not about being able to park within half a mile from your house I expect to be able to park on my road why should I have to park streets away, I need to get a little more info on a cpz as I have a few questions.

[jimlad48]

flocker spotter Wrote:

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> Op has been banging this drum on here for 4 solid

> years now. have a day off

Not really, I've posted occasionally on this and many other issues. Sorry for having an opinion and for coming round your house and forcing you at gunpoint to read this thread rather than just ignore it. I'm an awful human being aren't I!

[jimlad48]

tash b Wrote:

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> I live in east dulwich and have a lot of family

> and friends that live in roads near by me, they

> all have the same problem as me it?s not about

> being able to park within half a mile from your

> house I expect to be able to park on my road why

> should I have to park streets away, I need to get

> a little more info on a cpz as I have a few

> questions.

Tash - send me the questions via PM and I'll do my utmost to answer them for you.

[rupert james]

TTW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jimlad ignore the haters. What?s sad is this is a

> perfect example of myopia/nimbyism that blights UK

> politics at every level- ?if it isn?t a problem

> for me then it shouldn?t be a problem for anyone

> else? (and vice versa).

>

> On Chadwick Rd at the moment the parking situation

> is a nightmare- it regularly takes 30-45 mins to

> find a parking space within 1km of my house,

> almost entirely due to commuters. I?ve heard

> stories of disabled people soiling themselves

> because they can?t find a place to park near their

> home. For us, the CPZ can?t come soon enough.

>

> I?m perfectly willing to accept that this may not

> be everyone?s experience in ED, and that some

> people vociferously oppose CPZs and don?t

> want/need them in their area. But to attack you

> for offering advice/support to those who are

> suffering with local parking chaos is absurd.

>

> I don?t expect to be able to park directly outside

> my house - anywhere on my street would be fine.

> But at the moment this is impossible - Our street

> (and many nearby) are being used as a giant

> carpark for Peckham Rue station, which is unfair

> and unnecessary when there are many public

> transport options.

I am also a resident on Chadwick Road and voted for the CPZ but what gets up my nose about Jimlad48 he keeps banging on about how wonderful his CPZ is and how wonderful our CPZ will be but we voted 74% in favour for a full day not 2hrs.

But then the toastrack got a full day and we got and will still get the traffic from his area.

The toastrack had the benefit of having senior Cllrs that listen to what their residents wanted no matter how small the majority was, we have Cllr's that do not do anything. That is why we ended up with 2 hours whilst surrounded by full day CPZ's.

I would be more impressed with him if he and his area asked the Council to turn their CPZ in to 2 hours like we are being forced to accept. It wont happen.

[geh]

11-13.00. CPZ eh? What will that do for:

The gym

The cinema

The market

The host of restaurants and pubs

Paying an additional tax to not park outside your house/on your street should be strongly resisted.

[jimlad48]

Rupert - Your area will not be overrun by people when the CPZ comes in. It will get vastly quieter.

There will be no overflow from our CPZ to yours once your own CPZ comes in. I know that I helped local residents in your area with your own CPZ campaign (again at their request) and I do think you are over worrying about the outcome. The primary driver for a CPZ will be commuters who need all day parking without risk of ticketing. I know when I wander around your street at the moment that it is full of commuters and builders who use it as a dumping ground. But, if they cannot park there all day anymore, then they will go away and park elsewhere.

I don't understand who you think these mysterious drivers are who are going to start using your road when the CPZ lands, where they are coming from and why they will appear in your road post CPZ if they're not there already? Perhaps you can explain this to me, because I assure you that your road will be vastly quieter when it happens.

The drivers you get are commuters who need all day parking. Take the ability to park all day away without a permit (even for 2 hours) and they will go. Its utterly simple and been proven in other CPZ - like I keep telling you, if you don't believe me, go and wander round other 2hr CPZ zones at different times of the day. It will allay your fears. Instead you keep going on here about this rather than just going out and seeing the reality.

[tash b]

Jimlad48 I have pm you

[first mate]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rupert - Your area will not be overrun by people

> when the CPZ comes in. It will get vastly

> quieter.

>

> There will be no overflow from our CPZ to yours

> once your own CPZ comes in. I know that I helped

> local residents in your area with your own CPZ

> campaign (again at their request) and I do think

> you are over worrying about the outcome. The

> primary driver for a CPZ will be commuters who

> need all day parking without risk of ticketing. I

> know when I wander around your street at the

> moment that it is full of commuters and builders

> who use it as a dumping ground. But, if they

> cannot park there all day anymore, then they will

> go away and park elsewhere.

>

>

> I don't understand who you think these mysterious

> drivers are who are going to start using your road

> when the CPZ lands, where they are coming from and

> why they will appear in your road post CPZ if

> they're not there already? Perhaps you can explain

> this to me, because I assure you that your road

> will be vastly quieter when it happens.

>

>

> The drivers you get are commuters who need all day

> parking. Take the ability to park all day away

> without a permit (even for 2 hours) and they will

> go. Its utterly simple and been proven in other

> CPZ - like I keep telling you, if you don't

> believe me, go and wander round other 2hr CPZ

> zones at different times of the day. It will allay

> your fears. Instead you keep going on here about

> this rather than just going out and seeing the

> reality.

The success of your model seems in part to depend on the notion that streets will be quieter with CPZ because drivers ( the builders and commuters you refer to) will go and park elsewhere, on the streets with no CPZ. What happens when everywhere is CPZ, are you absolutely sure all the streets will still be quieter?

[jimlad48]

Given CPZ leads to 60% drop in traffic, and forces people into alternate commuting options, then yes I do think it makes a real and tangible difference. The more that can be done to make people use public transport for commuting, and not drive into Zone 2 (often from considerably outside London based on comments made to Southwark during the last consultation), the better for local environments and traffic.

[milk76]

Well I am delighted that the new 2hr CPZ is coming in. Our streets near the station voted in favour at the last consultation. It was the streets more than 300M from the station that swung the vote heavily against a CPZ previously. There are 19 commuter cars right now on Abbotswood/Talbot! In addition six that I recognise on St Francis, admittedly there are probably more there but It is not my street so I can't be sure. I regularly ride the train back out of town with people who park here. Some drive in from miles away for the free parking near the station. Personally I would rather take two trains and pay the larger fare but each to his own I guess.

I just feel sorry for Derwent Grove, Melbourne et al who were not offered the chance this time. Hopefully you guys will get the option soon. I guess this new portal will at least track interest in your streets.

[Bobby P]

milk76 Wrote:

> I just feel sorry for Derwent Grove, Melbourne et

> al who were not offered the chance this time.

> Hopefully you guys will get the option soon. I

> guess this new portal will at least track interest

> in your streets.

There is no problem on Melbourne - I have lived yards sound of ED Grove since 2003 and never had a parking problem.

[milk76]

I am happy for you Bobby, either you have been very fortunate or you have a high threshold for your definition of a parking problem.

My friend Tina, on Melbourne, has to park on neighbouring streets often when she returns during daylight hours. She has on occasion had to park by my place which is a hell of a long walk with bags and a buggy. It is these daytime driving locals, often women with children, who suffer the most from weekday commuter parking strains. As a full time working man, who uses the train to comute, I am less often affected as I drive mostly on call at night or at weekends. For at home partners it is a very real problem. Also for the elderly and those with some physical limitations.

[Bobby P]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The success of your model seems in part to depend

> on the notion that streets will be quieter with

> CPZ because drivers ( the builders and commuters

> you refer to) will go and park elsewhere, on the

> streets with no CPZ. What happens when everywhere

> is CPZ, are you absolutely sure all the streets

> will still be quieter?

Yes, that is exactly why this was defeated last time. Mission creep from the zoned areas impacting the ones next door.

But Council policy is to push for zoning in smaller and smaller areas in the hopes that parking displacement does occur and the neighbouring road (who had no issues before) will later petition for a CPZ.

Right now, I can park on my road and if necessary on an adjacent road a few yards down, and so there is flexibility for all cars to find a space, provided they aren't obsessive about being able to park right outside their doors!

But as soon as a small CPZ comes in, the available space for all is reduced. That is why you are right that if all is zoned, it won't reduce parked car numbers: it will just mean we are paying an extra tax for nothing. When I lived in another similar area which went from free parking to gradually introduced CPZs, this is exactly what happened ultimately.

With a few honourable exceptions where there may be a real case (perhaps adjacent to a station, for instance), pushing to introduce it just for one's home road, when parking is perhaps not ideal but not critical, is shortsighted and doesn't consider the effect on neighbours or next-door roads.

A real solution to advocates of non-car ownership like jimlad48 would be a) ban all cars and b) make public transport useable. Public transport is not really fit for purpose in ED. I don't take my car into zone 1, as I don't wish to pay the Congestion Charge, and cycling (my main form of transport) has always been far, far quicker than public transport - which really should not be the case if local government were serious about efficient public transport and moving people out of private cars. It isn't.

CPZs are a way of raising revenue for Councils: they are not genuinely about improving traffic movement, pollution or helping to upgrade public transport.

[Bobby P]

milk76 Wrote:

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> I am happy for you Bobby, either you have been

> very fortunate or you have a high threshold for

> your definition of a parking problem.

>

> My friend Tina, on Melbourne, has to park on

> neighbouring streets often when she returns during

> daylight hours. She has on occasion had to park by

> my place which is a hell of a long walk with bags

> and a buggy. It is these daytime driving locals,

> often women with children, who suffer the most

> from weekday commuter parking strains. As a full

> time working man, who uses the train to comute, I

> am less often affected as I drive mostly on call

> at night or at weekends. For at home partners it

> is a very real problem. Also for the elderly and

> those with some physical limitations.

It is indeed hard to gauge people' threshold for tolerance of parking in an inner city area, which I think is part of the issue here.

I can say this about Melbourne:

- I've lived there since 2003. I have seen no change in parking difficulty, it's remained pretty much the same, despite increased yellow lines and other markings creeping in over the years.

- I don't expect to be able to park directly outside my house, though I most often I can park no more than 20 yards away).

- When this isn't possible (maybe 20% of the time), I can park on the bottom of Tell Grove, Ashbourne, or occasionally further south on Melbourne. This then would be a maximum walk of 2 minutes to my door, even with heavy shopping or other luggage (which I often have).

- If that is the threshold that others find inconvenient - and I indeed deal with highly immobile parents visiting, who thankfully can park for free still, as well as children - then no, it's fair to say I don't share their threshold for pain. I would consider this part and parcel of making a choice to live in a densely populated urban area rather than outlying suburbia or the countryside.

- Finally, having experienced it at my previous address in a similar relatively affluent area of London, I don't empirically believe that a fully zoned ED will be easier to park in ultimately for residents. CPZ is not the policy that will finally solve the volume of cars problem, certainly not in this area. For that you will need something much more radical, but as so often with public policy, the stick seems to be imposed before the carrot is even thought about.

[Jenny1]

What we really need is a radical improvement to public transport. Perhaps something like the German proposal to trial free public transport in five major cities.

[Earl Aelfheah]

TTW Wrote:

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> I?ve heard stories of disabled people soiling themselves

> because they can?t find a place to park near their

> home. For us, the CPZ can?t come soon enough.

?You have heard?. Hmmm. Disabled residents can get a disabled bay installed in front of their house. This is nothing to do with a CPZ.

?It?s not that I want a CPZ, it?s just my concern for the disabled?. Right

[rendelharris]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> What we really need is a radical improvement to

> public transport. Perhaps something like the

> German proposal to trial free public transport in

> five major cities.

You could do it for less than ?1,500 a year (average, obviously it would have to be weighted according to household size, income, value etc) on council tax - 3.5m households in London, TfL fare revenues ?4.6bn. It would be utterly transformational for London, one would imagine, but one doubts anyone would ever have the political courage to try it, or that the voters would go for it - even though most probably spend more than that per year on fares anyway.