Russian aggression - what to do?

[Blah Blah]

He sounds like Donald Rumsfeld mark 2.

[Jenny1]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> He's a

> posturing little prick who seems to think he's the

> reincarnation of Churchill.

Quite. And suddenly the world - and British and US politics in particular - is full of these people. Always ready with a dangerously witless response to any serious situation. Where did they all spring from? Where's the production line? That's what I want to know.

[TE44]

Thanks johnL, It seems Corbyn has been saying we should as a country go through legal procedures, and find out how, why and who were involved. I don't understand the decision for the expulsions, whilst answers have not been found. What info will be given to us ,I wonder.

[DulwichFox]

Teresa May as a woman, doing a Margaret Thatcher and getting tough with Russia at a time

when Russia's unstable leader Vladimir Putin is boasting about his development of nuclear weapons

'invulnerable' to US missile defence, is Madness.

The assignation of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in June 1914 is attributed to the cause of World War One.

Russia is in a current Financial Crisis. World leaders can result to War in such situations.

Could the recent incident with the chemical attack in Salisbury spark a situation which could escalate to War with Russia.?

[cella]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks johnL, It seems Corbyn has been saying we

> should as a country go through legal procedures,

> and find out how, why and who were involved. I

> don't understand the decision for the expulsions,

> whilst answers have not been found. What info will

> be given to us ,I wonder.

Agree. Think Corbyn just wanted to know that some sort of formal process had been gone though with evidence before committing to the serious stuff. Remember WMD?

[dbboy]

Was in the East during the Summer on "holiday" and I have to say I much prefer life here in the West.

[JoeLeg]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Teresa May as a woman, doing a Margaret Thatcher

> and getting tough with Russia at a time

> when Russia's unstable leader Vladimir Putin is

> boasting about his development of nuclear weapons

>

> 'invulnerable' to US missile defence, is

> Madness.

>

I agree that the rhetoric is unpleasantly familiar to the 1980?s, and no less scary. However, some kind of response has to be made; if this was indeed the use of a chemical weapon on our streets by a foreign power then it cannot go unchallenged. Putin thrives on finding out how far he can push it, and keeping others ?off balance? through action. Personally I don?t think he?s unstable, I think he?s actively unsettling his geopolitics opponents.

> The assignation of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in

> June 1914 is attributed to the cause of World War

> One.

>

If we had seen someone of similar standing assisinated in Salisbury then yes, we would be calling up the reserves by now. Let us hope we never witness such an incident.

> Russia is in a current Financial Crisis. World

> leaders can result to War in such situations.

Again, yes, I agree. Part of why this is happening is so he can deflect attention back home. I can only hope diplomacy behind the scenes is progressing.

> Could the recent incident with the chemical

> attack in Salisbury spark a situation which could

> escalate to War with Russia.?

God I really hope not. Somehow I doubt it - everyone knows where it would lead...remember that Putin utilises misdirection, internet activity, confusion and deception very effectively. It?s hard for folk like us to know what he?s really up to.

[DulwichFox]

Thanks for the reply Joe.

Tend to agree with what you are saying.

DulwichFox

[jimlad48]

Its stsndard practise for RN vessels to shadow Russian vessels when near the UK. Partly for safety and partly to stop them ditching waste (a filthy illegal habit they have). Asfor evidence, Corbyn was briefed full on it - the problem is he has chosen to male political capital from it, not act respomsibly.

[rendelharris]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Its stsndard practise for RN vessels to shadow

> Russian vessels when near the UK. Partly for

> safety and partly to stop them ditching waste (a

> filthy illegal habit they have). Asfor evidence,

> Corbyn was briefed full on it - the problem is he

> has chosen to male political capital from it, not

> act respomsibly.

It may well be standard practice, but that's been going on since the cold war, previous defence secretaries didn't feel the need to say "I will not hesitate to defend our waters" when ordering it - who's making political capital?

As for Corbyn, yes he would have been briefed, and he clearly felt that, from that briefing, a rush to judgment was being made and counselled caution. If he wanted political advantage he would have got far more from jumping on the tubthumping bandwagon. Whether he's right or wrong, he's doing what he thinks is the right thing, and for that he gets pilloried in a manner worthy of the McCarthy era. The Tories and their media mouthpieces are the ones making political capital - notice how Brexit and the scrapping of free school meals for a million children hasn't been getting a look-in?

[JohnL]

So as the paper review presenters on Sky News said after lambasting Jeremy Corbyn - what can we do.

UN - Russia has a veto (my work colleagues don't believe this as it sounds so unfair) but Russia will veto any resolution critical of them.

Military - Can't do anything - our new carriers are nice but we haven't got enough destroyers or planes to intimidate and if I remember Russia threatened to sink our carriers if we threatened them.

Diplomacy - The Russians have decided to ignore everything that is said - maybe use back channels ? Maybe we still have the capacity for some dirty tricks ?

Economic - Maybe - but we've been applying sanctions for years and Putin doesn't seem rattled.

So as the Sky News reviewers said. What can we do. Blame Jeremy Corbyn maybe :)

[TE44]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/03/15/politics/dhs-fbi-russia-power-grid/index.html

US accuses Russia of cyber attacks.

I cannot believe our government has created a situatuon through accusation then expulsion before giving any information or proof to the people they are meant to be representing.the problem is not Corbyn making political capital from it, he is suggesting we learn from our mistakes, take time to gather information that can give everyone a better understanding. Theresa May has escalated this situatiion by her actions spouting the same old shite, behaving in the same old way. Yes we all know it was a terrible act, but up until this happened I didn't know who these people were. As I don't know the people individually who have died under systems she and her government have implemented to vulnerable peiple here. If only they had the decency to recognise there own actions. I believe many people have a mistrust that runs deeper than an isolated situation that is

escalating from information given about our safety.

Lets not bother with the protest this time uf the truth comes out differently.

[Jenny1]

Quite a number of commentators seem to be drawing parallels between Iraq/WMD and the current Russian poisoning. In my view there's no comparison. In the run up to the Iraq War it was clear that the burden of expert opinion was against the wisdom of the war. The most respected voices amongst chemical weapons experts were unconvinced and people who knew the region well predicted exactly what happened - that a war would lead to the rise of terrorism.

[JohnL]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> Quite a number of commentators seem to be drawing

> parallels between Iraq/WMD and the current Russian

> poisoning. In my view there's no comparison. In

> the run up to the Iraq War it was clear that the

> burden of expert opinion was against the wisdom of

> the war. The most respected voices amongst

> chemical weapons experts were unconvinced and

> people who knew the region well predicted exactly

> what happened - that a war would lead to the rise

> of terrorism.

When Corbyn draws parallels, he's talking about his perception of the behaviour of parliament (and MPs) and specifically their toleration of dissent.

There is no information in the public sphere that I can see - only those in government and our allies (and I assume Corbyn etc) have been given the evidence - and they all seem to say it's damning but ....

[Blah Blah]

It seems as though the Western allies are lining up behind May and the UK on this. They seem convinced by the evidence so far and Daily Politics reports that this is a huge story accross Europe.

[TE44]

Jenny1, the comparison does not begin and end at Iraq/wmd, There is a history of misinformation and a history of withholding the truth, we have seen in the past governments can follow procedure within the law,

have appealed time and time again when the public have used there right to freedom of information, especially when there systems put in place are under questioning.

[Jenny1]

Hi John L. I don't know what's motivating Corbyn. But the trouble is that his comments sounded at best naive, and at worst a little mad. I can see that the Labour Party has managed to pull its message round on this now - but it's not good enough really, is it? May hasn't completely screwed this one up in my view. Which of course doesn't excuse the fact that she and the Brexit ultras are hurrying us down the road marked 'ever decreasing international influence', without any thought for the consequences.

[dbboy]

To summarise Vladimir Putin has had an agent of the USSR attempt to murder a former double agent and his daughter on British soil by using a nerve agent and potentially lingering 500 other people who were considered to be collateral damage. And it is not the first time Russia has done this on British soil, first their was the murder using a poison tip umbrella and secondly the use of nuclear material to kill Litvinenko. So Russia is quite happy to murder people on foreign soil.

[rendelharris]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi John L. I don't know what's motivating Corbyn.

> But the trouble is that his comments sounded at

> best naive, and at worst a little mad. I can see

> that the Labour Party has managed to pull its

> message round on this now - but it's not good

> enough really, is it? May hasn't completely

> screwed this one up in my view. Which of course

> doesn't excuse the fact that she and the Brexit

> ultras are hurrying us down the road marked 'ever

> decreasing international influence', without any

> thought for the consequences.

With all respect, Jenny, I don't see calling for a measured assessment of the evidence ("To rush way ahead of the evidence being gathered by the police, in a fevered parliamentary atmosphere, serves neither justice nor our national security") and a proportionate and effective response ("We agree with the government?s action in relation to Russian diplomats, but measures to tackle the oligarchs and their loot would have a far greater impact on Russia?s elite than limited tit-for-tat expulsions?) as either naive or mad, if anything, it's statesmanlike - more statesmanlike than saying "Russia should shut up and go away," at any rate.

[Jenny1]

HI RH. Clearly Gavin Williamson is MORE mad. But I still think the tone of Corbyn's comments was ill-judged. There would have been a way of sounding statesmanlike about this. And he didn't manage it.

[JohnL]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To summarise Vladimir Putin has had an agent of

> the USSR attempt to murder a former double agent

> and his daughter on British soil by using a nerve

> agent and potentially lingering 500 other people

> who were considered to be collateral damage. And

> it is not the first time Russia has done this on

> British soil, first their was the murder using a

> poison tip umbrella and secondly the use of

> nuclear material to kill Litvinenko. So Russia is

> quite happy to murder people on foreign soil.

The poisoned umbrella was Bulgaria IIRC - but Warsaw Pact so I get you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov

Additionally a Senior Tory MP yesterday said the wife and son were murdered -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-spy-poison-sergei-skripal-wife-murder-son-mp-tom-tugendhat-nerve-agent-kremlin-a8246381.html

But I'll always defend peoples right to be cautious on this.

[rendelharris]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HI RH. Clearly Gavin Williamson is MORE mad. But I

> still think the tone of Corbyn's comments was

> ill-judged. There would have been a way of

> sounding statesmanlike about this. And he didn't

> manage it.

I agree he could have sounded better - his best mates wouldn't call him a great speaker - though I would add the caveat that it's rather difficult to get a reasonable point across with the entire Tory party shrieking "traitor" over you. His article in the Guardian is perhaps a better vehicle by which to judge him: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/15/salisbury-attack-conflict-britain-cold-war

[Earl Aelfheah]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jenny1 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > HI RH. Clearly Gavin Williamson is MORE mad. But

> I

> > still think the tone of Corbyn's comments was

> > ill-judged. There would have been a way of

> > sounding statesmanlike about this. And he

> didn't

> > manage it.

>

> I agree he could have sounded better - his best

> mates wouldn't call him a great speaker - though I

> would add the caveat that it's rather difficult to

> get a reasonable point across with the entire Tory

> party shrieking "traitor" over you. His article

> in the Guardian is perhaps a better vehicle by

> which to judge him:

> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar

> /15/salisbury-attack-conflict-britain-cold-war

It's actually pretty difficult to argue with much in that article.

[rendelharris]

Boris Johnson giving a speech on this matter this lunchtime - at the Battle of Britain Bunker museum. This is getting absurd. I've always suspected politicians think it's only a war that lets them be really statesmanlike - Thatcher/Falklands, Major/Gulf I, Blair/Gulf II etc.

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity..."

[Earl Aelfheah]

Boris loves playing Churchill. Pathetic.