Russian aggression - what to do?

[TE44]

Jimlad48 Is there anything in particular he has written

you believe has no substance or is it everything he has written you feel is odd. It may seem over analysing to you, i can understand you thinking this, as your view is very clear cut. For myself it feels naturally to look at other view points, especially the long history our government have of withholding or giving wrong information.

[jimlad48]

TE44 Wrote:

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> Jimlad48 Is there anything in particular he has

> written

> you believe has no substance or is it everything

> he has written you feel is odd. It may seem over

> analysing to you, i can understand you thinking

> this, as your view is very clear cut. For myself

> it feels naturally to look at other view points,

> especially the long history our government have of

> withholding or giving wrong information.

His obsession with Israel for starters.

I'm afraid if it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck then its usually a duck...

[TE44]

Ok I can't really get the context or meaning of above jimlad48, is this something he has written in relation to the attack. I can't imagine agreeing with everything someone else believes, but can understand if someone behaves in a way to cause hatred by lying, manipulating etc, I would be very wary of what they had to say. I am not aware of his obsession with Israel, I shall have a look.

[maxxi]

jimlad48 Wrote:

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>"its a material only they have,"

Some would say otherwise. Your source/proof?

"a man only they

> would want dead"

Really?I mean, really? Ditto the above.

"and so its easy to realise it is

> Russia"

realise?

Interesting use of language.

And wrong.

It MAY be the nasty Russian bastards - but let's get a little smidgeon of proofy-woofy first, eh?

Do you favour Bacofoil? or supermarket brands?

[Jenny1]

jimlad48 Wrote:

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> A

> lot of people are over analysing what is an

> astonishingly clear cut case.

Indeed. I'm not sure when the fashion for paranoia about the blindingly obvious took hold, but it's everywhere these days. I guess it was incubated in the US and then spread here? My impression is that much of Western Europe remains fairly immune from it. And along with it has emerged a loss of critical thinking about more complex issues.

[Alan Medic]

jimlad48 Wrote:

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> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > That article doesn?t actually say the UK

> veto?d.

> > It says we ?blocked? a UNSC ?statement?, which

> is

> > not the same thing as vetoing a resolution.

> >

> >

> > So the article might be correct.

>

> Its not - we havent done anything of the sort.

> Sputnik essentially made it up. Adam Boulton in

> the Sunday Times pointed this out too.

Why then are there multiple links like this one to the story? Why is Adam Boulton in the S/Times a better source of information?

http://yournewswire.com/uk-blocks-russias-un-security-council-statement-on-skripal-poisoning-probe/

[TE44]

First recorded novichok synthesis in 2016 by Iran in cooperation with OPCW ( operation for prevention of chemical weapons)

I do not understand why our government is not

Refuting these claims if they are false.

Edited to add same link diffrent website.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/first-recorded-successful-novichok-synthesis-was-in-2017-by-iran-in-cooperation-with-the-opcw/amp/

[JoeLeg]

There a lot of circumstantial evidence for the idea that it might not be Russia, but none of them answer one point -

Motive.

I?m at a loss to fathom why anyone except Russia would want to do this. To be blunt, it?s not only the simplest explanation, it?s the only plausible one which doesn?t involve a massive level of inherently implausible conspiracy.

[TE44]

JoeLeg, Yes it is the simplest explanation but as my mum used to say, nothing is ever that simple. Of course there are simple matters but looking at consequence of actions, i don't think this is a simple matter.

[JoeLeg]

All of that is true.

However, if this wasn?t Russia, who was it and more importantly WHY? Who benefits from the death of a Russian expat double agent just before a Russian presidential election? While I don?t rule out the possibility that this was someone else, we have to ask ourselves who would gain from framing Russia, right at this moment in time? This has strengthened Putin at home and reinforced the message that he won?t be pushed around by anyone. If it was designed to damage him then it?s backfired.

ETA - whoever did this wanted it to be noticed. It?s very easy to kill someone and leave no worrying tracks - if this guy had been stabbed in his bathtub it?s barely be front page news. By using a nerve agent it sends a message, and while I agree it?s an extremely risky move by Russia, it also serves to not only make a point, but also test the UK?s response to stress in the current political climate. Putin works by keeping people off-balance, and this fits his modus operandi, frankly.

Look, maybe it was someone else, maybe they?re being framed, maybe it's a conspiracy. But so far the hoofprints this whole thing is leaving are making me think horses.

[JohnL]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> There a lot of circumstantial evidence for the

> idea that it might not be Russia, but none of them

> answer one point -

>

> Motive.

>

> I?m at a loss to fathom why anyone except Russia

> would want to do this. To be blunt, it?s not only

> the simplest explanation, it?s the only plausible

> one which doesn?t involve a massive level of

> inherently implausible conspiracy.

The Mother in Law was a common one (and maybe a stupid one)

[JohnL]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> All of that is true.

>

> However, if this wasn?t Russia, who was it and

> more importantly WHY? Who benefits from the death

> of a Russian expat double agent just before a

> Russian presidential election? While I don?t rule

> out the possibility that this was someone else, we

> have to ask ourselves who would gain from framing

> Russia, right at this moment in time? This has

> strengthened Putin at home and reinforced the

> message that he won?t be pushed around by anyone.

> If it was designed to damage him then it?s

> backfired.

>

> ETA - whoever did this wanted it to be noticed.

> It?s very easy to kill someone and leave no

> worrying tracks - if this guy had been stabbed in

> his bathtub it?s barely be front page news. By

> using a nerve agent it sends a message, and while

> I agree it?s an extremely risky move by Russia, it

> also serves to not only make a point, but also

> test the UK?s response to stress in the current

> political climate. Putin works by keeping people

> off-balance, and this fits his modus operandi,

> frankly.

>

> Look, maybe it was someone else, maybe they?re

> being framed, maybe it's a conspiracy. But so far

> the hoofprints this whole thing is leaving are

> making me think horses.

Of course it's not just this case - loads of suspicious deaths of Russians in the last few years (as Russia made flippant comment about the UK being a dangerous place for ex-russian spies)

Some listed here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nikolai-glushkov-russia-linked-deaths-britain-sergei-skripal-yulia-a8260271.html

[TE44]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TE44 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Jimlad48 Is there anything in particular he has

> > written

> > you believe has no substance or is it

> everything

> > he has written you feel is odd. It may seem

> over

> > analysing to you, i can understand you thinking

> > this, as your view is very clear cut. For

> myself

> > it feels naturally to look at other view

> points,

> > especially the long history our government have

> of

> > withholding or giving wrong information.

>

> His obsession with Israel for starters.

>

> I'm afraid if it waddles like a duck, quacks like

> a duck then its usually a duck...

Jimlad48, link to conversation regarding craig murrays accusation or not of israels involvement. Quoted down the page.

I can't find anything obsessive, nor can i find the duck quote, can you show any links please where this is the case.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk

[flocker spotter]

You should do some more research on Murray and why he was sacked and booted out of the diplomatic service - preferably not from his own endless takes on the subject. You may also wish to check out his fellow travellers for a bit more perspective.

[TE44]

Thanks flocker spotter, ive read a little, i'm trying to find

A different perspective, but he seems to respond honestly to peoples accusations against him.

[rendelharris]

flocker spotter Wrote:

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> You should do some more research on Murray and why

> he was sacked and booted out of the diplomatic

> service - preferably not from his own endless

> takes on the subject. You may also wish to check

> out his fellow travellers for a bit more

> perspective.

As I recall, he was charged with a number of misconduct offences (after making repeated complaints about the US obtaining evidence in Uzbekistan through torture) and was exonerated of all charges, but was sacked for talking to the press about them. Wasn't that what happened?

[flocker spotter]

I have no axe to grind on either side here but what is not in doubt that he is a great self publicist and had carved himself out a niche in an area that by its very nature is grey and is habitu? of issues that can never be comprehensively answered

[flocker spotter]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> flocker spotter Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You should do some more research on Murray and

> why

> > he was sacked and booted out of the diplomatic

> > service - preferably not from his own endless

> > takes on the subject. You may also wish to

> check

> > out his fellow travellers for a bit more

> > perspective.

>

> As I recall, he was charged with a number of

> misconduct offences (after making repeated

> complaints about the US obtaining evidence in

> Uzbekistan through torture) and was exonerated of

> all charges, but was sacked for talking to the

> press about them. Wasn't that what happened?

That is what Wikipedia states yes. The misuse of HMG property ( a Range Rover) was an interesting one.

[rendelharris]

flocker spotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > flocker spotter Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > You should do some more research on Murray

> and

> > why

> > > he was sacked and booted out of the

> diplomatic

> > > service - preferably not from his own endless

> > > takes on the subject. You may also wish to

> > check

> > > out his fellow travellers for a bit more

> > > perspective.

> >

> > As I recall, he was charged with a number of

> > misconduct offences (after making repeated

> > complaints about the US obtaining evidence in

> > Uzbekistan through torture) and was exonerated

> of

> > all charges, but was sacked for talking to the

> > press about them. Wasn't that what happened?

>

>

> That is what Wikipedia states yes. The misuse of

> HMG property ( a Range Rover) was an interesting

> one.

Didn't look on Wiki, was just saying what I remembered. What did he do with the Range Rover? Going to have to look it up now!

[flocker spotter]

the pervading smell of the fellow travellers lingers on him I find. whether you think that is relevant it is up to you, but given that no one in this affair is exactly truthful - including our own government, You may as well use murrays join the dots missives to take a position - as good anything as else out there probably

[JohnL]

Sky News saying they expect this story to "die down" now after the exchange of diplomatic expulsions.

Came across as a bit contrived to me (as if they've been told to cool it).

[JohnL]

flocker spotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the pervading smell of the fellow travellers

> lingers on him I find. whether you think that is

> relevant it is up to you, but given that no one in

> this affair is exactly truthful - including our

> own government, You may as well use murrays join

> the dots missives to take a position - as good

> anything as else out there probably

Long ago (during the cold war) I decided both sides were probably up to funny business.

[TE44]

Flocker spotter, i don't think its about taking a position,

this is an incident which is being investigated, what evolves should not come from certainty, but from a position of enquiry.

Rendellharris, I've read about the charges against murray thrown out, what i can't find is anyone being clear about assumptions or remarks like james bloodworth, where he has online conversation, and resorts to "you know, wink wink" in answer to someone questioning him on a remark about murray, on last link i posted.

[JohnL]

Ouch.

Sixty Russian diplomats expelled by the USA.

[JohnL]

A surprise, for me, on Thursday. What could it be ?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/26/kremlin-warns-boris-johnson-has-surprise-compare-russia-nazi/