Riots in Tottenham......

[mockney piers]

So far LD's analytical thinking seems to have stretched to 'tomatoes are red, fire engines are red, fire engines are tomatoes'. Not really worth pursuing or countering.

Like Santerme says, have a little patience, the truth will out.

It strikes me that there are a number of strands to this sorry tale.

The looters is a red herring, low lives and cynical opportunists, always take advantage of this sort of situation for personal gain.

The shooting. Once we look past the ins and outs of the immediate incident we seem to have two things to really consider, why it doesn't seem non-sequitur to many of the locals interviewed that a 'good man' would of course carry a weapon for protection, and why the same community feels that recourse to the police is simply not an option.

Police harassment/brutality. The met has changed immeasurably over the last 20 years, especially in terms of race sensitivity and relations, yet problems persist, stop and search is still both routine and seemingly arbitrary and still causes tension*. On the other side of the coin, met moral is at an all time low, the police seem not to be able to do anything about drugs on the streets and the concomitant violence.

Social tensions; as stated by some unemployment is rising, yet with an increase of disenfranchisement there have been swingeing cuts to social services, outreach, youth work and youth clubs with a resultant increase in gang activity and simmering social tensions. Simmering things do often boil over.

Whether or not one agrees with the cuts and I make no judgement here, there were a million warnings from analysts, commentators, politicians and most importantly those on the ground that this sort of thing was an inevitability, and so it has proven.....again.....

*I should add that I think race here is also largely a red-herring and it's more to do with the attitude of the police to youth in the area rather than to colour.

[camberwell70]

Where is the Mayor in all this.

London is witnessing its worst civil disobedience for 25 years and its elected leader is on a beach somewhere drinking f######g Martinis and tousling his hair.

Purleeeeeze Boris, get on the case!

[ibilly99]

This thread is a paragon compared to what is going down on other forums. If you haven't registered for another local forum (you need to register to view) urban75 (originally started as a Brixton forum) than I would highly recomend it. It probably has a younger profile than EDF but moderated arguements run on with hundreds of contributors from the anarchist left to the informed middle to the Daily Mail right. They also link to all the live twitter feeds and it would appear a section of youth have found their new summer's sport. What is worrying is that a lot of these kids are probably the gangs getting together informally so that they have critical mass to go on the rampage. With the backdrop of an economic depression and with the financial crisis only in Act 2 at the moment (when countries go bust) things don't look to good.

[mockney piers]

to be honest if he was in london he'd appear before the testicle to do some soundbite about how marvellous the police are then retire to some posh club to drink martinis and tousle his hair.

[camberwell70]

Get down there Boris!

:X

NOW!

[LadyDeliah]

Sorry if my cynicism re: the police is seen as encouraging rioting - that is not what my intention is.

I have been involved in protests and even direct action and have seen the actions of the police first-hand in those situations. Plus I know someone who is close to the family of Duggan and the stories in the press regarding his death did not correlate with what was seen by witnesses.

It now seems some of my cynicism was not unjustified.

MP, thank you for your very thoughtful post. I feel that you have highlighted the problem very well. These situations don't just come out of the blue. Anyone with half a brain can predict the circumstances that can result in the kind of rioting we have seen over the weekend.

It's not about being a wooly liberal or appologist. It's about understanding human nature and triggers.

The government were warned by many people that this could happen, but they continued with their cuts and continued to let the bankers and other elites to carry on as normal.

I feel resentful. I am unlikely to go and set fire to someone's car as I have a means of expressing my opinions and know how to lobby decision makers if I so chose.

The under-educated and societally disconnected youths who went to the police station for answers on Saturday have expressed their resentment differently.

[Loz]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why would the bullet be police issue if Duggan

> supposedly shot the cop?

You are jumping to conclusions, based on scant evidence. The bullet is a hollow point. They are used by police, but not exclusively. They do not know, as yet, which gun it came from.

[Santerme]

Those poor under-educated and societally disconnected youths have expressed their desire to commit crimes against their own neighbours and then extended that outwards via the aptly described social networking sites.

It is true anyone with a brain can see the gravy train being jumped on.

My heart bleeds for them, that is my cynicism coming out.

[Loz]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The under-educated and societally disconnected

> youths who went to the police station for answers

> on Saturday have expressed their resentment

> differently.

I think you need to do a bit of separation here. There was a protest on Saturday afternoon by friends and family of Mark Duggan who, quite justifiably in my opinion, wanted some answers to some pretty valid questions.

Then came the bandwagon jumpers on Saturday night. I'm guessing that most of them had never met, nor knew of, the dead man.

[ianr]

Just a reminder of the power of unconfirmed rumour in a tense situation. Wikipedia article on Birmingham 2005 race riots

[LadyDeliah]

The initial riot outside the police station which was a reaction to the death of Duggan and the alledged assault by the police on a young woman.

The further rioting later on was reportedly mainly angry young men.

The filling of cars with loot appears to have been mainly older people not actually connected to the battles with the police.

So I would suggest there were three sets of people in all of this with three sets of general motivations.

[Santerme]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The initial riot outside the police station which

> was a reaction to the death of Duggan and the

> alledged assault by the police on a young woman.

>

>

> The further rioting later on was reportedly mainly

> angry young men.

>

> The filling of cars with loot appears to have been

> mainly older people not actually connected to the

> battles with the police.

>

> So I would suggest there were three sets of people

> in all of this with three sets of general

> motivations.

All of which were unlawful, in spite of the 'alleged' assault.

You are getting to the point where the sublime has descended to the ridiculous.

The baseline on these incidents is only the investigators will have the full information and, in time, so shall we.

[Fabricio the Guido]

These investigators are humans, no? Or is it some sort of independent oracle we consult in times of unrest. interesting how the CCTV evidence is often the first to be taken by the police. I guess they hand it over when they have viewed it. One assumes the investigators will have the full information, nevertheless. They are not dependent on the police to collect evidence in situations like a shooting.

[Santerme]

Why not just Google IPCC and have a look?

[Fabricio the Guido]

Well aware of the IPCC, are you aware of the tussle that goes on between them and the police about gathering evidence? You need to read some more about operational control of a scene/ crime scene.

[ianr]

A ?BBC TV news report from the scene of the shooting made a point of the fact that IPCC investigators were, perhaps unusually, on the scene at the same time as police investigators. They could be seen there, with an IPCC legend on their protective clothing, alongside police investigators. I surmised that the police had possibly wanted to ensure that an independent investigation was being seen to be done.

[Marmora Man]

The government were warned by many people that this could happen, but they continued with their cuts and continued to let the bankers and other elites to carry on as normal.

This is utter b******s. You are turning a rational government response to a decade of overspending into an excuse for violent behaviour. Student Socialist Worker seller level of argument: " D - - ".

[LadyDeliah]

No, MM, just predictable responses to stimuli. Easy peasy really.

[Jeremy]

I agree that it was predictable. I guess it was only a matter of time before someone tried to link this to "the bankers".

[Loz]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is utter b******s. You are turning a rational

> government response to a decade of overspending

> into an excuse for violent behaviour. Student

> Socialist Worker seller level of argument: " D - -".

I'm sure I saw loads of t-shirts on the news saying, "How Dare You Restrict Library Opening Hours" and "Weekly Bin Emptying NOW!". No, really...

[Jeremy]

I have it on good authority that many of the rioters were concerned that the new Basel III regulations don't go far enough to ensure that banks hold adequate capital reserves.

[Huguenot]

I have it on good authority (I spoke to the sister of one of the girlfriends of an upstanding member of the community in Pontefract whose brother knew a bloke who caught a train to Luton where the chap who sat next to him knew how to spell Enfield) that much frsutration stemmed from the fact that Consumer Focus, the consumer rights group, will transfer to the Citizens Advice Bureau.

It was felt that there should be more 'Citizen-based Testing' that accounted for temporary loans from homeware stores in Tottenham.

Bloody Tories.

[Fabricio the Guido]

Capital adequacy is a weak measure compared with control of bonuses,every street urchin knows that so they wouldn't wear such a T shirt!

[citizenED]

According to BBC London there is some trouble in Rye Lane this afternoon.

[Santerme]

It looks as though every disaffected youth is intent on making their feelings known about the general economic malaise.

By increasing their collection of plasma TVs.