Football Focus

[El Pibe]

I was always going to do pedantry lets face it, but Mussolini was no nazi.

He was a fascist of course and far from my cup of tea, and though he liked cracking heads and pursuing very ill thought out colonial policies (jeez, who doesn't these days) he shouldn't be smeared with the actions of the darker fascist types the other side of the alps.

Interestingly if you look at the proportion of european jewish populations sent to their deaths by country, Italy is actually the lowest (16%) because it was the least puppetty. In fact it only got bad there in the north when Mussolini was deposed and the germans installed martial law, without that its at about 3%.

For the worst countries outside Poland(91%) where the camps were and the SS could do what they liked, look no further than those lovely cuddly collaborating Dutch (71%) the baltic states and greece! (86%)

Any way I digress, as you were.

[????]

Come on RD - you've got a manager who wanted Gordon Brown to still be PM ;-)

[????]

...to be fair to the dutch (fair I hope niot an excuse) it's a pretty small place with probably a pretty efficiient pre-war bureacracy that makes people's whereabouts pretty easy to find. I think the Balkans and Poland (infact eastern europe and russia as a whole) had pretty appalling anti-semitic histories prior to WW2 as well. Ironically Germany/Austria didn't really.

[El Pibe]

point taken, but it's still got a pretty big population given the size and for a beauracracy to work well that means the whole thing has to be dedicated to rubber stamping the murderous policies of a regime who has invaded and subjagated you.

That means widespread collaboration rahter than the cosy picture of resistance films like Orange Soldier like to

portray. To be fair it was probably such a successful film because they embraced the fantasy with such gusto due to the deep sense of shame at the war years.

You can borrow http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ajax-Dutch-War-Football-Europe/dp/0752842749 that more than touches upon the topic in many places, quite a cool book.

I've nothing against the Dutch, lived there for a year, nor am I a fan of Mussolini's. I am rather partial to PDC despite his rather odd opinions though.

[maxxi]

Opening this can of eels was always likely to start a shit storm so fine, here it is.

I admire PDC's committment and passion and ability. I admire his honesty and the fact he is prepared to say he admired Musso and is dedicated to a bunch of nutters in Rome even though I think he is wrong.

He is NOT though - and never has been - a racist and has never - to my knowledge - committed an overt racist act. The infamous salute was punished and his reasons for it may seem twisted and from anyone else would definitely smack of backtracking/excusing it because we like things black or white. He said..

"I am a fascist, not a racist. I give the straight arm salute because it is a salute from a 'camerata' to 'camerati', the salute is aimed at my people. With the straight arm I don't want to incite violence and certainly not racial hatred."

So you don't like facism, who does? But your point is cheap and narrow and there have been whole dissertations written on the difference between the tribal loyalty of these so-called ultras and those committed to organising the world along lines of racial purity but that doesn't matter when it comes to scoring cheap points does it?

Terry's racism was disgusting in its casualness - why are you not protesting that this thug is going to continue to be allowed to play in English football let alone play for his country? And he is not alone - racism certainly still exists beneath the veneer of a lot of 'respectable' people in football as it does in the rest of society yet those who are good at pretending and/or are punished for the occasional slip as long as they pretend contrition and wear the sackcloth we forgive them.

I thought more of you than this kind of Daily Mail knee-jerk crowing but clearly I was wrong.

[maxxi]

?I?m sure people will want to talk about Luis Suarez, but he accepted his ban, served his suspension and returned against Spurs on Monday,? said Dalglish.

?It?s time for all of us to draw a line under what happened.

?We have spoken to him. I know he will shake the hand of Patrice Evra and the other Manchester United players before the game.?

Suarez refuses to shake Evra's hand

[Otta]

Suarez not shaking Evra's hand is bloody stupid!

Not only is it dragging this whole nonsense even further, but it's probably fired up United that bit more.

Error Luis! You're fast losing any sympathy you may have had left.

[Atticus]

Daglish behaviour is to blame here. this should have been put to bed but his pathetic, churlish comments on monday night have given Suarez the green light, again.

[Otta]

Suarez is an adult. Surely his actions are down to him.

I know you like to have a dig at Dalglish, and to be fair, you have a point, but what Suarez does on the pitch is down to Suarez.

[maxxi]

You can see Ferdinand refusing to shake Suarez's hand too

[Atticus]

I've only had a dig at Daglish since this happened, beforehand I, like most honest Evertonians had a begrudging respect for him. This whole affair stinks, he's in charge and he's failed to control it, in fact he's only served to inflame it.

[Otta]

That's where I said you had a point, but I don't think he can be blamed for the lack of a handshake, and I hope that he'll have words, even if he does try and put a positive spin on it to the press. I also hope his team mates will tell Suarez it was a bad move.

[maxxi]

HALF TIME: Manchester United 0-0 Liverpool. Controversy at the end of the half, as on the whistle, a still irate Suarez boots the ball into the stand. Evans goes up to remonstrate. The ref gets in the way and ushers the players to the tunnel. Seconds before, Dalglish was on the touchline beseeching his player to calm down. He's been anything but calm during this first half.guardian

Looks like Dalglish is trying but maybe a little too late.

[jctg]

I can't wait to see how Dalglish tries to defend Suarez's actions this afternoon.

[????]

On the whole I have a lot of reasonable amount of time for Liverpool, its fans and Daglish.

On this, they should all be ashamed of themselves. Suarez is clearly a nasty piece of work and Daglish has acted disgustingly.

[maxxi]

jctg Wrote:

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> I can't wait to see how Dalglish tries to defend

> Suarez's actions this afternoon.

Maybe he'll just be an a***hole and refuse to discuss it... oh he already has. King Kenny Canute.

ETA: After seeing UDT's clip the above can be amended to 'refused to discuss it with BBC and was only porepoared to be interviewed as long as they didn't ask him about it'.

[Undisputedtruth]

There you go, jctg. Dalglish is playing the "I didn't see it" card. He also seems very evasive in his answers when questioned in depth.

 

[Otta]

"Suarez is a disgrace to Liverpool Football Club. He should not be allowed to play for Liverpool again. He could have caused a riot."

Perhaps not shaking his hand was wrong, but if anything was going to "cause a riot", surely it was this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16998363

But yes, that video of Kenny Dalglish is embarrassing.

[taper]

Perhaps in Uruguay, it is the highest form of respect not to shake someone's hand.

[Otta]

Better from Kenny here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16996724

[Undisputedtruth]

Evra is entitled to celebrate the way he did today considering the amount of abuse he had to put with.

[Huguenot]

400+ in the crowd over here in SG, which has a very strong Liverpool bias, and I think everyone wished Evra well in his celebration.

There was a lot of passionate pro-Liverpool noise before the handshakes, but when Suarez refused to proffer his hand the crowd went silent.

Big clubs like Liverpool rely heavily on worldwide support, and this episode seems to have had an extremely negative effect. The club may be obliged to find a solution to this one way or another.

[Otta]

Well his manager said he shouldn't have, but you know best UDT.

Agree the whole sorry saga hasn't done Liverpool any favours.

The club and match going fans seem to be convinced that they're in the right though.

[Ladygooner]

Henry strikes again - back in joint 4th with Chelsea - things are looking up!

[Undisputedtruth]

Otta Wrote:

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> Well his manager said he shouldn't have, but you

> know best UDT.

>

> Agree the whole sorry saga hasn't done Liverpool

> any favours.

>

> The club and match going fans seem to be convinced

> that they're in the right though.

Alex Ferguson branded Suarez a disgrace.